My Experiment With "Big Box" Pellets versus the more expensive "premium" pellets

[Enigma869]

Good Morning All...

I'm still fairly new to the pellet game. This is my second season with my Harman Accentra insert. I wanted the P68, simply because I live a fairly large home (3100 square feet) and I knew the Accentra is a bit undersized, in comparison to the P68. That said, it came down to aesthetics for both my wife and I. We both thought the Accentra insert looked a whole lot better than the P68. Not to mention, there wasn't a need to lose a corner of our family room to accommodate the P68. I also don't care for the mirrored glass on the P68 (still not sure why Harman did that). I do believe Harman's numbers on the square footage their stoves will heat is VERY conservative. 98% of the winter, my main floor about 70 or 71 degrees (anything warmer than that, and it would simply be far too warm for me) and the upstairs bedrooms are 68 degrees (also plenty warm enough for sleeping). I believe Harman says the Accentra insert is rated for about 1400 square feet. My home is only 10 years old, and well insulated with higher quality Andersen windows and doors throughout, so I'm sure that helps some. It is sort of interesting to me that there is almost no price difference between the Accentra insert and the P68, given that the P68 is much higher in the BTU department.

The past couple of days, it's been ridiculously cold in the Boston area (not getting out of the teens during the day and about 2 degrees at night). I woke up the other morning to a chilly house. Only 62 upstairs and 64 on the main floor. I guess I'm not surprised, just given how cold it is. I understand that when it's this cold, it's tough for a stove rated for 1400 square feet to keep up with more than double that. After reading all the great information on this forum, I decided to try pellets that supposedly burn hotter, so off to look for some Barefoots and Turmans. I picked up 10 bags of Barefoots and Turmans in Central MA to see if they would really make any difference over the Green Supremes that I purchased at Lowes. Given that they are a whopping 50% more money, my position was that they better be able to give off more heat (and even then, I wasn't convinced that it was worth 50% more). After burning the Barefoots for the past two days, I can now safely say that they don't make a bit of a difference in my house. I woke up to the same 62 degrees upstairs and the same 64 degrees downstairs. On the one hand, I'm disappoitned that the more expensive pellets didn't even make a degree difference (again, the temperature has been pretty much the same for the past couple of days, so I believe it's a fair comparison). On the other hand, it's nice to know that I can go to a place like Lowes and get the same heat for under $200.00 a ton where I live.

John

 

[flynfrfun]

I'm sure another Harman owner will chime in...but my understanding is the Harman stoves will regulate how many pellets to feed to get the room to a certain temp. So hotter pellets don't necessarily heat better, but will last longer since the stove will reduce the feed rate with them. Sounds like you don't have the stove set right or the probe is not in a good spot. There is stove temp and room temp. I don't know the ins and outs of each, but that's where another Harman owner should be able to help. My take on stove mfg square footage estimates...don't even bother. It's all about BTU input/output, not some goofy square footage estimate. I think your Accentra should be able to heat a lot better than it is and it's probably just a matter of changing a setting.

 

[lbcynya]

Good Morning All...

I'm still fairly new to the pellet game. This is my second season with my Harman Accentra insert. I wanted the P68, simply because I live a fairly large home (3100 square feet) and I knew the Accentra is a bit undersized, in comparison to the P68. That said, it came down to aesthetics for both my wife and I. We both thought the Accentra insert looked a whole lot better than the P68. Not to mention, there wasn't a need to lose a corner of our family room to accommodate the P68. I also don't care for the mirrored glass on the P68 (still not sure why Harman did that). I do believe Harman's numbers on the square footage their stoves will heat is VERY conservative. 98% of the winter, my main floor about 70 or 71 degrees (anything warmer than that, and it would simply be far too warm for me) and the upstairs bedrooms are 68 degrees (also plenty warm enough for sleeping). I believe Harman says the Accentra insert is rated for about 1400 square feet. My home is only 10 years old, and well insulated with higher quality Andersen windows and doors throughout, so I'm sure that helps some. It is sort of interesting to me that there is almost no price difference between the Accentra insert and the P68, given that the P68 is much higher in the BTU department.

The past couple of days, it's been ridiculously cold in the Boston area (not getting out of the teens during the day and about 2 degrees at night). I woke up the other morning to a chilly house. Only 62 upstairs and 64 on the main floor. I guess I'm not surprised, just given how cold it is. I understand that when it's this cold, it's tough for a stove rated for 1400 square feet to keep up with more than double that. After reading all the great information on this forum, I decided to try pellets that supposedly burn hotter, so off to look for some Barefoots and Turmans. I picked up 10 bags of Barefoots and Turmans in Central MA to see if they would really make any difference over the Green Supremes that I purchased at Lowes. Given that they are a whopping 50% more money, my position was that they better be able to give off more heat (and even then, I wasn't convinced that it was worth 50% more). After burning the Barefoots for the past two days, I can now safely say that they don't make a bit of a difference in my house. I woke up to the same 62 degrees upstairs and the same 64 degrees downstairs. On the one hand, I'm disappoitned that the more expensive pellets didn't even make a degree difference (again, the temperature has been pretty much the same for the past couple of days, so I believe it's a fair comparison). On the other hand, it's nice to know that I can go to a place like Lowes and get the same heat for under $200.00 a ton where I live.

John

Read the "How your Harman Works" link in my signature and then reply back to this thread with how you were running your stove. Feed rates, room temp or stove temp and temperature settings and igniter switch position. Do you have an OAK? Let us know. Thanks.

PS - Mirrored glass is only "mirrored" when the stove is off. That way, you don't see the internals during the summer months. Quite nice, actually.

 

[mascoma]

I'm sure another Harman owner will chime in...but my understanding is the Harman stoves will regulate how many pellets to feed to get the room to a certain temp. So hotter pellets don't necessarily heat better, but will last longer since the stove will reduce the feed rate with them. Sounds like you don't have the stove set right or the probe is not in a good spot. There is stove temp and room temp. I don't know the ins and outs of each, but that's where another Harman owner should be able to help. My take on stove mfg square footage estimates...don't even bother. It's all about BTU input/output, not some goofy square footage estimate. I think your Accentra should be able to heat a lot better than it is and it's probably just a matter of changing a setting.

I'm not sure what is sillier the OP or this reply.

Your accentra is undersized for your house. Your not going to heat a 3100sqft house with 42,000BTU stove. It will work great down to a certain temp, and then it will not keep up. Pellet brand is not going to help this issue.

You have 2 choices, buy another stove, or let your furnace supplement on the coldest days / nights.

The accentra is the same price as the P68 because it looks nicer, you opted for looks instead of heat output.

Flynfrfun - nothing wrong with his unit, nothing to adjust unless he has it on stove temp instead of room temp and just needs to crank the dial to max, the unit is just too small.

 

[Enigma869]

Read the "How your Harman Works" link in my signature and then reply back to this thread with how you were running your stove. Feed rates, room temp or stove temp and temperature settings and igniter switch position. Do you have an OAK? Let us know. Thanks.

PS - Mirrored glass is only "mirrored" when the stove is off. That way, you don't see the internals during the summer months. Quite nice, actually.

Thanks for the link. Okay...my settings are as follows. The feed rate is at about 3.5 (but when it's 30 or above, I keep it just over 2 without struggling to heat the house). Honestly, I've never really understood the feed rate. I find that far more pellets are used as the feed rate goes up, even though the information in your link says otherwise. The ignitor switch is on "Auto". I've always used room temperature and turn the dial up as high as it will go, as I know that it will never be more than 73 degrees in my house given the open concept and square footage. Because of that my stove never really shuts down or "cycles". It constantly goes with a constant flame, when on. As for the outdoor air kit, I don't believe it has one. It was professionally installed by my Harman dealer up through the fireplace. Are there more ideal settings that I should try out on my Accentra? I'm always thankful for any information that I can learn. As I said in my initial post, the vast marjority of the winter, I maintain a constant 71 or 72 degrees, which is tropical for me. It's just when it gets ridiculously cold that the challenge is on to not turn the furnace on. Incidentally, I did know that the P68 was only mirrored when the stove is off (a close friend of mine has one). I just don't care for the look of mirrored glass. It screams of 1975 and is simply not my taste, even though it's superb stove that throws out massive amounts of heat.

 

[jp0469]

No need to play with the feed rate too much but you do need to do the initial set-up as described in the manual. You must have misunderstood the info in lbcynya's post because a higher feed rate will certainly equate to more pellet usage. The number on the feed rate dial (x 10) means the max number of seconds that the auger will be allowed to run per minute. So a setting of 4 means 40 seconds on followed by 20 seconds off. It's still a max allowable though as the auger cycle may be cut shorter if the stove detects that the room is up to temp (room temp mode only) but it won't go above 40 seconds. In stove temp mode, the stove is controlled by the exhaust temp probe.

Did you do the set-up of the feed rate per the manual? You need to in order to establish the max output of the stove and it may be different for different pellets.

In the end, the stove might well be undersized for your house but there are still a few things you can try.

 

[lbcynya]

Haha, I missed the 3100 sq feet part. Doh!

OAK will help a bit since you're pulling outside air into your house to replace the air you are using.

You might be a good candidate for Stove Temp during the really cold snaps. This will eliminate the chance that your room temp probe not being calibrated correctly. In the case of Stove Temp, your temp dial corresponds to a fixed ESP probe target - from 1 to 7, 7 being wide open or a max esp temp of around 500 degrees or less (not sure on Accentra, but you get the point). I'd also see how high you can set your feed rate without red hot pellets spilling over the edge. I've gone as high as 5 without problems.

You are asking a lot of your stove and you already know you'll probably need to offset with dino juice, but this will help a little. Also, having to run on high all the time will likely be out of the efficiency range, so lots of your BTU's will go out the chimney...

Also, hotter pellets might allow you to hit higher ESP temperatures resulting in a hotter stove. If average pellets and premium pellets both allow you to hit max ESP temp (you'll only know this with a Harman installer tool) then the premium pellets will last longer, still giving you "more heat". Whether it's worth the premium price is debatable.

 

[bcb1]

I've been buring pellets since 2004, first as a Quadra Fire owner and now as a Harman owner. I've used probably 10...maybe 12 or even 15 different brands over the years, and the only major difference I've seen is the amount of ash & clinkers that they leave behind. As far as heat goes...no meaningful difference. That's not to say that one brand might not burn a bit hotter, but as far as a meaningful difference...nah.

My favorites are the Blazers, they're a softwood pellet and leave a very light, fluffy ash behind. Unfortunately in the mid-Atlantic where I live, the only thing I can find around here are hardwood pellets, so I usually burn Hamer's Hot Ones or Greene Gold. On a total stroke of luck, my local Walmart happened to get in a few tons of Blazers a couple years ago, not sure how that happened, but I tried them and really liked them.

So if I can ever find softwood pellets, I'll buy them simply because I prefer the light, fluffy ash over the hard carbon and clinkers that hardwood pellets leave behind. Otherwise my local John Deere dealer sells Hamer's Hot Ones for $240/ton which isn't bad for our area.

 

[jtakeman]

That's a lot of house for that little stove. I would say a top shelf pellet could ease the load on the stove, But you'll need more help than that. I struggled with a 48K stove and just under 2k sqft. Even with great pellets.

Another candidate for a pellet furnace or 2nd stove. ;-)

 

[kcellwood]

Running your stove on a 3.5 feed rate is just about running the stove at half speed. The pellets will only feed about 35 seconds out of each minute. Run your feed rate as high as you can. The stove will regulate how many pellets (how long to run auger) based on room temp. Assuming you are running in room temp mode. The only time you need to cut back on the feed rate is if you start getting unburned pellets falling off the end of the burn pot. I've not had that issue yet this year. I run mine on 5.5 feed rate. Yes you will go through pellets but you'll also get max heat output out of the stove. This highest setting possible was recommended by a Harman rep at a recent seminar I attended. I made the decision when I bought my P68 to go for horsepower over looks.

 

[Enigma869]

Running your stove on a 3.5 feed rate is just about running the stove at half speed. The pellets will only feed about 35 seconds out of each minute. Run your feed rate as high as you can. The stove will regulate how many pellets (how long to run auger) based on room temp. Assuming you are running in room temp mode. The only time you need to cut back on the feed rate is if you start getting unburned pellets falling off the end of the burn pot. I've not had that issue yet this year. I run mine on 5.5 feed rate. Yes you will go through pellets but you'll also get max heat output out of the stove. This highest setting possible was recommened by a Harman rep at a recent siminar I attened. I made the decision when I bought my P68 to go for horsepower over looks.

The feed rate doesn't seem to be an issue. In fact, the Barefoots are just falling into the pan (never once has this happened with the Green Supremes or the NEWP I burned last season)while still orange and before they turn to ash. I had to back the feed rate down because of this. I think I am just going to go back to my Green Supremes. Good call by you getting the P68. That will be the stove I get for my next house. I definitely think the Accentra is a far better looking stove, but as you said...horsepower matters, especially when those temperatures really drop.

 

[flynfrfun]

I'm sure another Harman owner will chime in...but my understanding is the Harman stoves will regulate how many pellets to feed to get the room to a certain temp. So hotter pellets don't necessarily heat better, but will last longer since the stove will reduce the feed rate with them. Sounds like you don't have the stove set right or the probe is not in a good spot. There is stove temp and room temp. I don't know the ins and outs of each, but that's where another Harman owner should be able to help. My take on stove mfg square footage estimates...don't even bother. It's all about BTU input/output, not some goofy square footage estimate. I think your Accentra should be able to heat a lot better than it is and it's probably just a matter of changing a setting.

I'm not sure what is sillier the OP or this reply.

Your accentra is undersized for your house. Your not going to heat a 3100sqft house with 42,000BTU stove. It will work great down to a certain temp, and then it will not keep up. Pellet brand is not going to help this issue.

You have 2 choices, buy another stove, or let your furnace supplement on the coldest days / nights.

The accentra is the same price as the P68 because it looks nicer, you opted for looks instead of heat output.

Flynfrfun - nothing wrong with his unit, nothing to adjust unless he has it on stove temp instead of room temp and just needs to crank the dial to max, the unit is just too small.

See post #10 for the type of info I was trying to let the OP know is out there. I see nothing silly about it other than your snide comment.

 

[jdege]

I am going to offer my experience as another new Harman Accentra insert owner. It was installed the start of November and I live in a 12 year old 2500 sqft colonial on the seacoast of NH. The downstairs is open concept, 3 of the four bedrooms are over the main house and the master is over the garage. I ran the stove on a ton of Green Supreme for Nov & Dec with good heat. Since January I have been running Cleanfire Hardwoods and notice some additional heat and lower ash. Even with the very cold weather the last few nights the stove is keeping the down stairs at 71/72 and the upstairs at 67/68, the master receives no heat from the stove which was expected when we bought the stove. I run the stove in room temp auto (dial set around 72ish) with the feedrate at 3.5 and am going thru about 1.25 and 1.5 bags per day.

I will be honest I am heating more of the house then I anticipated when I bought the stove and it seems like I could push the stove to generate quite a bit more heat. I am guessing I will need a fourth ton to get all the way thru the fall shoulder season so I plan to build a ton of mix brands in the coming week having found several brands (NEWP, PWI, Vermont, Maine Wood and others) available from a range of places.

In a short time the stove has become my obsession and I enjoy sitting in front of it over the TV unless the Pats or Bruins are on. Enjoy the stove

 

[silverfox103]

Running your stove on a 3.5 feed rate is just about running the stove at half speed. The pellets will only feed about 35 seconds out of each minute. Run your feed rate as high as you can. The stove will regulate how many pellets (how long to run auger) based on room temp. Assuming you are running in room temp mode. The only time you need to cut back on the feed rate is if you start getting unburned pellets falling off the end of the burn pot. I've not had that issue yet this year. I run mine on 5.5 feed rate. Yes you will go through pellets but you'll also get max heat output out of the stove. This highest setting possible was recommended by a Harman rep at a recent seminar I attended. I made the decision when I bought my P68 to go for horsepower over looks.

Bingo!!

I have gone to two Harman seminars and both times they have said the same thing about cranking the feed rate up. The first time I didn't believe it, by the second time I went, I was a believer. No doubt you will get the best performance out of the stove.

Tom C.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Here is what you can do for a first cut get the lab test btu per pound information and use that to figure out what kind of premium you may or should not pay for a "better" pellet.

You can practice using the BTU ratings on woodpellets.com search several zip codes that are a long distance apart.

Do this over time as well because the prices change.

 

[Bigjim13]

I've been buring pellets since 2004, first as a Quadra Fire owner and now as a Harman owner. I've used probably 10...maybe 12 or even 15 different brands over the years, and the only major difference I've seen is the amount of ash & clinkers that they leave behind. As far as heat goes...no meaningful difference. That's not to say that one brand might not burn a bit hotter, but as far as a meaningful difference...nah.

.

This has also been my experience with my Harman over the last 3 1/2 seasons.

 

[Bank]

I'm burning Granules LG right now and their good, don't notice much difference from the Maine's Choice I was burning last week. It seems the Harmans take anything you throw in. As I said previously, the only thing my Harman couldn't burn were the lousy Penningtons Nature's Heat.

 

[investor7952]

Running your stove on a 3.5 feed rate is just about running the stove at half speed. The pellets will only feed about 35 seconds out of each minute. Run your feed rate as high as you can. The stove will regulate how many pellets (how long to run auger) based on room temp. Assuming you are running in room temp mode. The only time you need to cut back on the feed rate is if you start getting unburned pellets falling off the end of the burn pot. I've not had that issue yet this year. I run mine on 5.5 feed rate. Yes you will go through pellets but you'll also get max heat output out of the stove. This highest setting possible was recommended by a Harman rep at a recent seminar I attended. I made the decision when I bought my P68 to go for horsepower over looks.

I can tell you from my findings over the lasr 4 yrs with my accentra insert. Feedrate is without a doubt dictated by the pelletts. Lat yr I burned stovechow for early and late season and oakies in the heart of winter, The stovechows neede at least a 5-6 feed setting the oakies 3-4. Now this year used pellet sales green label and turman. The pellet sales pellet 5-6 the Turmans 2-2.5 anything over 3 the turmans glob up and just pour over the pot.
I have also found that heat output with ANY BRAND pellet only give me the max btus the first3 or so day after a cleaning. After that they all stink as far as heat output. My stove clean with turman puts out 250 degrees the first 2 days by the third right around 220- 225 the 4th and 5th 200-210
the 6th and till I clean it again NEVER over 200. Now the funny part here is the ONLY difference I find with cheap pellets vs uber expensive is in the 1st 2 days where the expensive hit max of 250 and the cheaps hit max of 230 but BOTH EVEN the most expensive and I have tryed every expensive highly spoke about pellets on this forum none after day 4 EVER put out more than 200 degrees. Just food for thought.
I will tell you where the expensive and better quality pellets shine. It is the low ash,clinkers,fines, and just a cleaner and easier to clean stove and I may get an 8th or 9th day before cleaning. But nothing ever beats the heat out of ANY pellet in my accentra than a clean stove the 1st 2 days after that I dont care what I burn in it just never ever gets that kind of heat output. I use a digital probe on the far left blower and 1 on the far right blower and yes there is and always has been almost a 15 degree difference from the laft to right sides.
With all this said I love this stove and it does a fantastic job heatitng my 3300 SFT home with a very open moder layout. The downstais where family room and eatin kithchen and kitchen are all open stays 72 down to 20 degree outside temp below that around 70. The rest of downstairs rooms to lft and far back of house stay around 67-68. Upstairs stays 67-68 and the bedrooms at the tops op steps stay the hottest at 70.

 

[stellep]

This year, I bought three different brands of bigbox pellets. Any of the three I can get 225 out of with the stove set at or even below idle. Purely for entertainment(probably a result of visiting here), I bought 6 bags each of 2 premium pellets. One was $5.50, the other was $6.50 a bag (ouch). Bigbox was $4-4.80 a bag. I really wanted to love the premiums, but I had to crank both brands to approach 200. One brand sure burned clean though.

Last year I bought one of the best loved brands here. They burned great, but stank and were so dusty I feared for my health pouring them into the stove. Not usable IMHO.

I'm burning Firesides(which I doubted) right now. 235 at below idle, been in the teens all day, 71.6 inside.

Some one here once said that pellets are a crap shoot. Even at the ton level they can be different within the same pallet. It's what's in em and how they are packed. I agree.

That said, if you have Somersets, you don't have to concern yourself with any of this.