My Huge Old Lopi, Tank and Comrad....

[Court]

First time post here, looking for a little insight.

I bought this "tank" back in 1999 for the sole purpose of having heat when the lights went out on January 1 of 2000 LOL. This Lopi is 26" deep by 23" wide by 17" high and those measurements are with all the firebrick in place. I can't gauge the steel but do believe it's no less and 1/4 in thick all around and weighs a whopping 750 pounds "without" the fire brick. It has two solid brass doors with glass in the center. I've never had the blower but it has a spot for the blower on the bottom with full length vents on the top and the sides, two lower inlet vents to stoke fire on the bottom and one at the top for a glass wash which never worked so my glass is always black unless I run a razor over it.

This is an insert that fits perfectly in my natural fireplace and there is no metal venting, it just vents perfectly out of the chimney itself. With the use of a chimney cap/screen it really eliminates any sparks that go up the flue, but once I get the fire stoking I will shut the flue on the burner down completely, which by design will leave approx. 20% of the opening open and it works very well. Once fired at full throttle, I'll load it up with an assortment of hardwood and close it down except for a smidgent of air inlet at the bottom which will last on average 9 to 10 hours. In a cold Michigan January I'll do this, with a couple of fans blowing and the furnace fan on, I can heat my house quite quickly to an uncomfortable level, which is sometimes nice because opening the windows in January to cool down and get fresh air is pretty nice.

I called Lopi corporate in CA a few years back and their insight was that the unit was a 1983 model (rarely used before I bought it) and the company that manufactured it for them was based in Kalkaska MI and was "fired" because they did not make the units to their specifications (I really believe they made them better)

With this being said, maybe you can assist with some insight.

This unit is really not that efficient, but once going at full throttle it's not bad just not great. There are absolutely no air leaks of any kind but because I go through so much wood I'm considering upgrading to a more efficient unit. Mainly because I don't need to feel like I'm in a sauna so much and I'd like to control the burn a bit better. Would it be feasable to buy a new unit that stokes out with less wood? Are newer units really any good compared to my old tank? Knowing that you cannot buy another like it I don't want to get rid of it but am thinking it may be best to replace it with a more efficient unit. I'm a saver so looking at prices of $5,000 to $8,000 for a new unit is lunacy to me. Also, how old can a unit be and still be safe?

Any insight is appreciated.

 

[Grisu]

Welcome!

A pre-EPA "smokedragon" is usually about 40% efficient while a modern secondary burn stoves has an efficiency of approx. 70 to 75%. Cutting wood usage by 1/3 to 1/2 is therefore possible for the same heat output. Nevertheless, it remains to be seen if a new insert will give you quite as much heat as that large one you have currently. A pic would help in identifying what you actually have although I assume it is a pre-EPA stove.

We will need to know the dimensions of your fireplace (that scheme may help: http://www.woodheat.com/how-to-measure/), a pic would be good, the total sqft to heat, the level of insulation of your home, some idea about your floorplan (or a rough sketch). Is the fireplace at an interior or exterior wall? How tall is the chimney? What are its inside dimensions? Is the insert for primary or supplemental heat? What is your budget?

Even with that old unit you should have had a stainless steel liner in the chimney. It sounds like you have a slammer install which is unsafe and no longer allowed. A new unit will certainly need one and the liner should be insulated. The chimney will require a good cleaning before the liner goes in.

Be aware that a modern stove/insert absolutely requires dry wood of less than 20% in internal moisture. How long is your wood sitting split and stacked in the yard to dry?

 

[Court]

Welcome!

A pre-EPA "smokedragon" is usually about 40% efficient while a modern secondary burn stoves has an efficiency of approx. 70 to 75%. Cutting wood usage by 1/3 to 1/2 is therefore possible for the same heat output. Nevertheless, it remains to be seen if a new insert will give you quite as much heat as that large one you have currently. A pic would help in identifying what you actually have although I assume it is a pre-EPA stove.

We will need to know the dimensions of your fireplace (that scheme may help: http://www.woodheat.com/how-to-measure/), a pic would be good, the total sqft to heat, the level of insulation of your home, some idea about your floorplan (or a rough sketch). Is the fireplace at an interior or exterior wall? How tall is the chimney? What are its inside dimensions? Is the insert for primary or supplemental heat? What is your budget?

Even with that old unit you should have had a stainless steel liner in the chimney. It sounds like you have a slammer install which is unsafe and no longer allowed. A new unit will certainly need one and the liner should be insulated. The chimney will require a good cleaning before the liner goes in.

Be aware that a modern stove/insert absolutely requires dry wood of less than 20% in internal moisture. How long is your wood sitting split and stacked in the yard to dry?

Good Idea. Please see the below attached pictures. One exterior, one interior showing a top metal slider that holds 5 fire bricks, assuming this is some type of primitive after burner? Not sure but this is definitely pre epa. House is 1500 sq ft colonial, two story and the insulation may be as good as an army tent. Fortunately there is no issue with budget, I personally just find disdain in sending Edison a check every month.

What is a slammer install and why is it unsafe? I just pushed the insert in and sealed it up. Too out the flue mechanism so it is wide open inside. The chimney itself is the standard clay liner with an entire brick exterior all in exceptionally good condition. I clean it once a year.

Thank you

 

[Grisu]

Since there are no secondary burn tubes in there that certainly looks like a pre-EPA unit. Probably one of those? http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/93508014.pdf

Here is a picture how an insert can be vented:

Figure 1 is a "slammer" install where no pipe connects to the insert. Figure 3 is the proper way to do it with a full liner to the top. Figure 2 (direct connect) is still allowed but usually results in problems similar to the "slammer" install. Those often suffer from poor draft, more creosote accumulation in the chimney, and can be potentially unsafe when in the coaling stage draft becomes insufficient and smoke and CO gets pulled into the house. You may not have had that problem yet but all it needs is just one bad day...

1500 sqft should not be too difficult to heat with one modern insert even with poor insulation. When you get a chance to answer my other questions I am sure you will get some good recommendations.

Finally: Is that carpet in front of the insert? Do you cover that during the winter with a proper hearth material? You need at least 16" of hearth from the insert door per NFPA 211.

 

[Court]

Since there are no secondary burn tubes in there that certainly looks like a pre-EPA unit. Probably one of those? http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/93508014.pdf

Here is a picture how an insert can be vented:

Figure 1 is a "slammer" install where no pipe connects to the insert. Figure 3 is the proper way to do it with a full liner to the top. Figure 2 (direct connect) is still allowed but usually results in problems similar to the "slammer" install. Those often suffer from poor draft, more creosote accumulation in the chimney, and can be potentially unsafe when in the coaling stage draft becomes insufficient and smoke and CO gets pulled into the house. You may not have had that problem yet but all it needs is just one bad day...

1500 sqft should not be too difficult to heat with one modern insert even with poor insulation. When you get a chance to answer my other questions I am sure you will get some good recommendations.

Finally: Is that carpet in front of the insert? Do you cover that during the winter with a proper hearth material? You need at least 16" of hearth from the insert door per NFPA 211.

Very observant. Yes that is carpet. Yes I do cover it. I don't believe it would ever be a problem because of the distance from the burner (rise on bricks) but yest I do. I'm somewhat of a safety freak. I also use a carbon monoxide detector just for added safety.

I would have to pull burner out to get measurements on fireplace opening and because every time I do I get a kinked back (750 pounds) and crack my bricks, I won't be pulling it out right now. The opening is pretty big, obviously bigger than this tank of a woodburner. I had to use pretty wide steel to cover hole as you can see at the top.

Greatly appreciate your insight. Thank you.

 

[Court]

Very observant. Yes that is carpet. Yes I do cover it. I don't believe it would ever be a problem because of the distance from the burner (rise on bricks) but yest I do. I'm somewhat of a safety freak. I also use a carbon monoxide detector just for added safety.

I would have to pull burner out to get measurements on fireplace opening and because every time I do I get a kinked back (750 pounds) and crack my bricks, I won't be pulling it out right now. The opening is pretty big, obviously bigger than this tank of a woodburner. I had to use pretty wide steel to cover hole as you can see at the top.

Greatly appreciate your insight. Thank you.

Grisu,

Thank you for the flyer on my burner. I've searched for this a number of time but to no avail.. Thank you again.

 

[Court]

Grisu,

Thank you for the flyer on my burner. I've searched for this a number of time but to no avail.. Thank you again.

Grisu, Getting ahead of my self trying to watch 8 kids in the pool.... As to the liner, not possible. The top of the Lopi is flat with no place to attach a liner to.

 

[Grisu]

Could you not just pull the surround off to make some measurements?

Very observant. Yes that is carpet. Yes I do cover it. I don't believe it would ever be a problem because of the distance from the burner (rise on bricks) but yest I do. I'm somewhat of a safety freak. I also use a carbon monoxide detector just for added safety.

I spent already too much time here looking at totally unsafe installations. With time it gets second nature to spot those things. Kudos for using a hearth pad and a CO detector.

 

[Grisu]

As to the liner, not possible. The top of the Lopi is flat with no place to attach a liner to.

You would need to buy a boot like that:

Anyway, that point is moot when you are getting a new insert anyway. They are certainly designed to have a liner attached.

Getting ahead of my self trying to watch 8 kids in the pool.

For the sake of safety : Maybe you want to come back at a later time? We'll be around.

P.S. A mod may also move the thread to the hearth room as your inquiry is not really about a classic stove but a modern insert.

 

[bags]

I have an old insert like this. I'm pretty sure it's a 1984 when the original part of my house was built. Still works well too.

 

[bholler]

As to the liner, not possible. The top of the Lopi is flat with no place to attach a liner to.

Absolutely possible and absolutely necessary. You say you are a safety freak if so the way this stove is installed is unsafe and you need to change it. There is a huge potential for co leaking into the house it is very difficult to clean properly installs like this typically make allot of creosote and if you do have a fire there is allot of air leaking in around the stove to feed air to that fire. There are many very good reasons this type of install is no longer allowed by code.

 

[bholler]

have an old insert like this. I'm pretty sure it's a 1984 when the original part of my house was built. Still works well too.

Does it have a liner attached to it?

 

[bags]

Bholler,
NOPE! I know, I know ....... Hear me out. It's a slammer as originally installed back in '84. My flue and chimney are in excellent shape. The huge real stone with exceptional craftsmanship was a big factor in my decision to buy this project junk pile of a project house back 12 years ago. I've pretty much built a new home all the way around the existing structure circa 1984. The massive stone hearth etc; is one of the only original things left.

The Lopi and hearth / chimney works fine. Plus I do not use it. Just an nice looking retro mantel piece these days. The previous owners used it as a sole heat source for years. Decades actually, but they had a heat pump central back up too. The squirrel cage blower is now dead but in tact. The entire insert is in excellent shape except the dead blower motor.

I found an exact replacement at A-1 Electrical Motors in Northern KY. The shop specializes in blower motors and pretty much has everyone ever made or a replacement that is compatible. They quoted $130 bucks for a new one. The whole shooting match except the OEM plate / cradle which attaches the unit under the stove. Not bad because I know these motors and cages usually carry a nice price tag. I might also look at Grainger for a price comparison.

I am planning on pulling it when time allows and taking it to my friends fab shop. Probably will do a tasteful re-purpose and convert it into a free standing unit. Also planning on keeping the original fire place in working order but moth balled and ballooned or sealed completely with minimal effort required to undo in case I want to use it as a novelty. Maybe build a holiday fire or two per year just for oohs and aahs. It will require some serious cutting and fab work but not too bad to covert to a free standing wood burner. I've had it out a couple of times to get some thoughts together. I'll post pics when I embark on that venture. The insert is OEM equipment here so i feel it deserves to stay with some updating and mods. I do have a relocation plan for it.

I just think they are a good stove and neat looking too. Simple and old school inefficient? You betcha! Plan is conversion to a free standing unit gaining more radiant heat. Maybe try for a secondary burn deal too. Just need the time for another project.

BTW, Ralpie Boy here on the forum lives right around the valley about 4 miles away and invited me to stop by but haven't made it yet. I'll be looking him up soon. He is a old school wood burner and has a massive stash. He mainly hangs out in the Wood Shed forum.

 

[bholler]

The Lopi and hearth / chimney works fine. Plus I do not use it. Just an nice looking retro mantel piece these days.

Well if you don't use it then no need for a liner i guess. If you do use it as a free stander be aware that it is then a completely unlisted stove and needs 36" clearance to combustibles and should be on a cement floor or heavily insulated hearth. And if you are planning on using the fireplace you need to have the fireplace inspected as well. If the previous owner was using that slammer as the main heat source chances are there was at least 1 chimney fire and the liners may be cracked.