I am buying Englander wood burning insert model 13-NCI and I need advice in regard to flex liner for the chimney. What would be the good match for this insert and where I can find the installation instruction. Thanks.
alfski
alfski
Need advice for chimney liner
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Funny Gibbonboy, although in defense, you put chimney liner in there and 565 messages come up.
Alf, welcome to the forum. Check out chimneylinerinc.com for pricing and instructions - that's where I got mine from. Another site, Chimneylinerdepot.com actually offers a free installation DVD and the site gives you a brief clip of it. In terms of type of liner - you want 316ti (a type of reinforced steel) and as thick as you can get keeping in mind how much flex your flex liner will actually have to do. Oh, and be sure to consider insulation, I believe both sites tell you when you absolutely need to do so and recommend it.
Alf, welcome to the forum. Check out chimneylinerinc.com for pricing and instructions - that's where I got mine from. Another site, Chimneylinerdepot.com actually offers a free installation DVD and the site gives you a brief clip of it. In terms of type of liner - you want 316ti (a type of reinforced steel) and as thick as you can get keeping in mind how much flex your flex liner will actually have to do. Oh, and be sure to consider insulation, I believe both sites tell you when you absolutely need to do so and recommend it.
You might also want to consider rigid liner if your chimney is straight - and then 6 foot or so of a decent flex at the bottom - it will last much longer in most cases, because it is 3 to 4x as thick as the flex...
Exception - there are various qualities and thicknesses of flex - you do get what you pay for. One type (at least), Ventinox, is fully welded flex- many others are simply pressed together - I've seen some you can unravel by hand......
So, as usual, it depends on your budget, etc...and who is doing the job. There is
Adequate
Decent
Good
Better
and
Best
And prices to match....
Exception - there are various qualities and thicknesses of flex - you do get what you pay for. One type (at least), Ventinox, is fully welded flex- many others are simply pressed together - I've seen some you can unravel by hand......
So, as usual, it depends on your budget, etc...and who is doing the job. There is
Adequate
Decent
Good
Better
and
Best
And prices to match....
We've been selling flex for 20 years and for the most part if you can unravel flex without really pulling on it then it wasn't properly made in the first place... we put a sample of every piece of flex through a bend test and a push through test after being bent in as many as 20 different directions....I wouldn't really worry about the thickness the standard for the industry is .005 with some saying that that .0055 may be better but all have been UL tested... PM me for any additional info and I can help even more.... I can also help find you a distributor in your area and if their isn't once I might be able to sell direct and lower your cost substantially.
I myself did exactly as web described, I used rigid insulated double wall from top to first flue tile, then flex from there to stove. Was more expensive, but I got what I paid for, a top notch set up. And cleaning is a breeze 
Sorry for the sarcasm, alfski, and welcome. Get your notebook ready, these guys will fill you in with what's where, whether you want them to or not! I mainly deal with the results of improper installations and the efforts of those who don't seek advice before lighting off that stove.
Gibbonboy said:
No problem Gibbonboy. I am glad that I asked because this will give me an idea what I do not want to do. Thank you all for your help and advice.
alfski
Hogwildz said:I myself did exactly as web described, I used rigid insulated double wall from top to first flue tile, then flex from there to stove. Was more expensive, but I got what I paid for, a top notch set up. And cleaning is a breeze
Why insulated only to the first flue tile not all way down?. Does flue tile provide some kind of insulation for the liner?
alfski
alfski said:Hogwildz said:I myself did exactly as web described, I used rigid insulated double wall from top to first flue tile, then flex from there to stove. Was more expensive, but I got what I paid for, a top notch set up. And cleaning is a breeze
Why insulated only to the first flue tile not all way down?. Does flue tile provide some kind of insulation for the liner?
alfski
Below the first tile (we are counting from the bottom up) you get into the smoke shelf and damper area, which is where clearances can start getting tight, and often there is more need to flex the liner to get it through - Thus the hassle of the insulation becomes greater than the benefits. Also you are close enough to the stove at that point that the heat losses aren't a big deal.
Gooserider
I called the Manufacturer of the liner I used. Mine is Dura Vent, Dura Liner. Nice gentleman there told me it was not required to insulate from the first flue tile down.
He did say, you can if you want to. I elected not to, and figured any heat although minimal, would radiate back to the room from the bricks. And it would also keep the dead air space between the top plate & lower block off plate warmer possibly helping with draft and less formation of creosote. Seems to work for me.
Plus I didn't have to buy insulation, as the rigid is already insulated between the inner & outer pipes.
He did say, you can if you want to. I elected not to, and figured any heat although minimal, would radiate back to the room from the bricks. And it would also keep the dead air space between the top plate & lower block off plate warmer possibly helping with draft and less formation of creosote. Seems to work for me.
Plus I didn't have to buy insulation, as the rigid is already insulated between the inner & outer pipes.
I spoke to few experts and I do not need to insulate the liner. My chimney runs inside the house so there is no need for insulation. I will use 2 wall flex liner which the inner wall is smooth inside.
aldki
aldki
alfski said:
You will get some level of disagreement from the "experts" here... Technically you may not "NEED" insulation to meet code if your chimney is otherwise compliant, and may have OK function without it. However the general concensus that I have observed is that there are few cases where insulation won't help. This is especially the case if there is anything that would make your chimney tend towards the marginal side, such as being short, having bends in the install, etc... It's a price / performance tradeoff in a case like yours - the insulation would probably improve your performance, but it might be debateable if it would do so enough to justify the added cost. OTOH, it is a really major pain to try to install it later if you decide it's needed. Liners are designed to be inserted once, and it is problematic to try and pull one out, insulate it, and stick it back in...
Gooserider
Alfski I looked at putting in that same insert but will not be burning so much in the area where the chimney is so I have decided to put in a PE Vista there instead.
I have an interior chimney about ~17-18 feet high and was told I didn't have to insulate it. But I am going to go with insulated rigid over uninsulated flex. It's going to cost about $300 more than uninsulated flex. But I'll have an insulated smoothwall chimney which will not only be safer but also extend my burning season a bit helping me recoup my investment faster. And while not fireproof, it will certainly help a long way if there was any problem with a chimney fire. At least I will sleep a bit better.
I have my house insured for just shy of $300,000 and it's going to cost me about $300 for the insulation over the cost of uninsulated. That is a 0.1% bet against its value with good odds. I think it's worth the extra cost as an investment alone.
I have an interior chimney about ~17-18 feet high and was told I didn't have to insulate it. But I am going to go with insulated rigid over uninsulated flex. It's going to cost about $300 more than uninsulated flex. But I'll have an insulated smoothwall chimney which will not only be safer but also extend my burning season a bit helping me recoup my investment faster. And while not fireproof, it will certainly help a long way if there was any problem with a chimney fire. At least I will sleep a bit better.
I have my house insured for just shy of $300,000 and it's going to cost me about $300 for the insulation over the cost of uninsulated. That is a 0.1% bet against its value with good odds. I think it's worth the extra cost as an investment alone.
I have one more installer telling me that there is no reason to wrap insulation around flex liner if the chimney is inside and having top cover installed.
alfski
alfski
alfski said:
alfski the most important thing is what the liner manufacturer says in the documentation that came with the liner. That defines the installation practices to obtain the safety and performance that the liner was designed and tested to provide.
I also need to block off the open area on both sides of the pipe that passes through the damper opening (from the insert manual "which can be done with packing flame retardant fiberglass insulation"). I was trying to google internet for this insulation but no luck. Anybody knows what brand is good for this or maybe a website that sells this kind of type of insulations. Thanks
alfski said:
This would be "Rock Wool" or mineral wool insulation, but this is a BAD technique! I am amazed that the insert manual would reccomend it, or that any code inspectors would allow it. The problem is that this type of material will absorb moisture, and eventually degrade and fall out. In the meantime it does little in and of itself to block airflow.
What you SHOULD do is make a sheet metal block off plate - there are extensive threads on this, as well as an excellent article on the Hearth Wiki about how to make one. If you really want to be thorough, some folks like to pack some mineral wool on top of the sheet metal as they are putting the plate into place - this way the plate blocks the air flow, and the insulation blocks the heat.
Gooserider
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