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Need advice for new install

Post in 'Classic Wood Stove Forums (prior to approx. 1993)' started by Jgrant0553, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    Ok so I am building a new house for myself. It is about 1600 sqft in total and I am looking to install a fisher papa bear stove centrally in the house. I was planning on putting the stove next to an exterior wall and running the chimney up the side of the house. That would give me a very short horizontal run and about a 25' chimney. I felt fine with this but after reading the forum I'm starting to think this might not be the best plan. Am I better off relocating the stove and keeping the chimney inside the envelope of the house. I could relocate and have a pretty straight run up and out the roof. I live in ky and while we do have cold snaps it usually isn't bad. I would like to be able to run the stove all night but I'm worried about cold chimney ir other problems of running out the wall. I am in a position to do either just not sure what is best. Any help and advise is much appreciated.

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  2. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Welcome. A straight up interior chimney will function better and should cost less. The house will look better too. Now about that old stove... Why not put in a good, clean burning modern heater in which you get the enjoyment of more heat for less wood and a spectacular fire view to enjoy?

    alt5.jpg 1700C-FS-1.jpg
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
    webby3650 likes this.
  3. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    I like the old stove. The top is nice and flat to cook on plus I enjoy the way it looks. New stoves are just not to my taste.
    LiamK and Scols like this.
  4. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I can understand that. In WA state the old Fisher would not be allowed in new construction. The papa bear could be overkill in a 1600 sq ft, modern, well insulated house. There are several stoves that have nice flat tops for cooking if so desired. And the fire view can't be beat. Added some pictures to my first post. New stoves will also keep your chimney cleaner as long as they are fed fully seasoned wood.
  5. webby3650

    webby3650 Master of Fire

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    Especially since you are building new, check out some new modern stoves. I appreciate the old stoves, but they are nowhere near as enjoyable as the new ones. And keep that chimney inside if at all possible.
  6. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    Building out in the middle of no where on a farm stead exemption I don't have to deal with building codes. I'm doing things as cheaply as I can, money wise not construction. I had the stove in the barn and really want to use it in the house. I could go with a nice new stove but am attached to this one. I know there are many fine choices but this one is free, in good shape and has character.
    LiamK and Scols like this.
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Check the clearance requirements, 36" in all directions for that old dogger. Proper NFPA wall shielding can reduce this. I would keep it as a barn heater.
  8. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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  9. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    Thank you so much for the info. Right now I'm sticking with my old stove for the minute. Let me get the thing installed and burning then I will ponder a newer stove because your right splitting all that wood might get out of hand. So aside from my poor choice in stoves it seems I should keep the chimney inside. My concern is cutting another hole in my nice new metal roof. Actually I don't mind the hole but I need a good roof kit that has a quality flashing that will work on a raised rib roof, any suggestions? I'm having trouble finding a vendor. I don't mind ordering on line but I need to know who is quality and who is crap.

    So if I keep the chimney inside I will need to go through the second floor and out the attic. I assume I will need a thimble through the ceiling on the first floor and double wall pipe. I will box the pipe on the second floor and then up through the attic and out the roof. Anything outside will need to be triple wall correct. It will be a straight run but I might need a 45 at the very top so I miss the peak of the roof, will that still work.
    Thanks again for all the info this is so helpful. I will defiantly research other stoves and yes i have plenty of clearance for my fisher.
    LiamK, Scols and valley ranch like this.
  10. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Use the Excel metal roof flashing. It's the best for the job. You will need a regular ceiling support box on the first floor and there should be a firestop at the second floor ceiling. The second story chimney part should be chased. I would use a good double-wall class A chimney pipe, not triple wall. It will have better insulation and 2" less in diameter. That makes it easier to work with and will fit the recommended flashing. DuraTech and Selkirk Ultra-temp or Super-Pro are good chimney pipe. Folks also report liking Olympia Ventis chimney, though I have not used it yet. 45 offsets are not allowed (or made) for chimney pipe. 30 deg. is the maximum. If possible try to avoid this by positioning the stove so that the chimney comes up close, but not right at the ridgeline.

    excel flashing
    http://www.icc-rsf.com/main.php?t=chem_produits&i=95&l=en

    classA-chase.jpg
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  11. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  12. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    Ok so a few more questions. I went with everyone's advice and ditched the old fisher for an englander 30 nc. My chimney runs straight up and out through the roof so I think I have all that solved. My next question is with wall covering. I am putting in a brick floor covering but was wondering if it would be alright to use cement board instead of wallboard with a one inch gap. The cement board would go right on the studs and then cover with pressed tin for a radiant wall covering. Will this work or should I go with wall board with a one inch air gap and then the cement board. Thanks again for the help.
  13. webby3650

    webby3650 Master of Fire

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    Anything that is non combustible with an air gap is fine. If I understand you correctly? Cement board-air gap-pressed tin. It could even be drywall-air-tin with no issues. Assuming Englander allows reduced clearances with an NFPA approved wall shield.
  14. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    The house is just framed right now. Is it alright to just put up the cement board right over the studs? If I do this do I still need an air gap between the tin and cement board?
  15. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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    What would be the distance between the stove side(s) and back to the wall if you would just put drywall over the studs? Do you have double or single wall pipe? How many layers of brick do you plan for the hearth? The 30NC needs thermal protection of 1.5 in r-value. 4" brick has only 0.8.
  16. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    The back distance is 12" it needs 14". The side clearance is 20" which is what is needed. Single wall pipe up to the ceiling then double wall out. Yes your right on the brick. What is best for underneath? Same one inch air gap or is there a good floor board?
  17. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The 30NC needs good hearth protection. You can buy a pre-made type 2 hearth or make your own that meets the R = 1.5 spec.
  18. Shwammy

    Shwammy Member

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    Ok, I'm convinced now that this site is actually ran by the EPA. You had a really great stove man. Better make sure your woodpile can't get wet or you'll freeze with that EPA stove. Damn trolls, he never even got to try it out before you guys pee'd in the pot. Another "Classic Stove" thread ruined. Sorry to everyone who came here looking for solid info on installing and running this great classic stove I can't name because it will drive traffic to this nearly useless thread.
    LiamK, Scols and Cssmit like this.
  19. Cssmit

    Cssmit New Member

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    +1 Schwammy! Took the words right out of my mouth. Now that's funny right there!
    Scols and Shwammy like this.
  20. Jgrant0553

    Jgrant0553 New Member

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    It's all good. Was looking for advise and totally realize everyone has there opinions. I would have kept the fisher but 36" or even 24" would have put it in the middle of the room. The new stove fits nicely in the corner and having glass in the door is cozy. My main concern is not burning my house down and I feel confident that I got solid advise and my install looks good. I appreciate all the help and I'm sure my questions are simple but I like to double check things. I'm a carpenter but never installed a stove before.
  21. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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    The Englander has a rear heat-shield; you don't want to install that one? Otherwise you can look at NFPA 211 to determine which heat shield would be appropriate. However, the reductions/clearances in the manual supersede the ones given by NFPA 211. Here is a link: http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/wood_stove_clearances_installing_it_safely You want to install a heat shield spaced 1" away from the wall which is open at the bottom and top. That way air will flow freely behind the shield and keep the drywall cool. Having the cement board sitting right on the studs is NOT a heat-shield even when it is not combustible. It will heat up and transfer that heat to the studs creating an unsafe condition. The tin may make things even worse.

    For the hearth, here is a list of common hearth materials and their r-values: https://chimneysweeponline.com/horvalue.htm
    If you look in the forum there are quite a few threads where people describe how they built a hearth for the 30NC. A raised hearth would make loading easier as the 30NC sits pretty low. An UL-tested type 2 stove board would be the easy and cheap solution but would not look as nice, IMHO.

    Edit: Guess I was a little late with that post. Congrats to the new stove. Feed it dry wood and I am sure you will have it warm and cozy this winter. :)
  22. Scols

    Scols Burning Hunk

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    Its pointless to even have an old stove forum on here. God forbid someone has to heat with wood out of necessity or a desire to live off the grid and doesn't have the means to buy a new stove. How hard is it to answer a question without turning it into an advertisement for Englander,Woodstock,Jotul...etc. The experienced members here know that an epa stove will burn just as dirty as a "old smoke dragon" if you don't use seasoned wood. And lets face it, the majority of people who go to their local hearth shop to purchase a new stove because they like the look of a fire but also want to supplement their home heating bill are buying their winter wood in September and burning it in November. And that's the real issue with responsible burning.And in my opinion a decked out fisher with shiny paws and pine tree moldings on the doors is as pleasing to the eye as the view of a fire through generic glass doors. So please ,can questions just be answered in a straight forward manner without the superior attitudes
    LiamK and Boomer Sailor like this.
  23. bholler

    bholler Minister of Fire

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    I agree that new stoves should not automatically be pushed on people. But when someone is thinking of installing an old one they should consider the down sides to old stoves like huge clearance requirements generally larger and there fore more expensive stack. and the fact that they are not as efficient. If you are ok with that and your insurance company is ok with a non listed stove go ahead and do it but you still should burn dry wood and hot fires or you will have the same problems as new stoves when wet wood is used in them. I think everyone needs to make their own decision on this but they need to know the down sides to old stoves to make an informed decision. As well as the down sides to new ones but really the only down side to a good new stove is the price in my opinion. And by the way i am using a 40 year old stove and love it before one of you accuses me of being an epa shill or what ever other ridiculous thing you come up with.
  24. Scols

    Scols Burning Hunk

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    I would go out on a limb and venture agues that there are two types of people using old stoves. 1, Those who have had their stoves for a long time and are either experts at using them or have used the same poor burning practices for many years and will never change their ways or 2, someone who is low on cash but needs a way to keep their family warm and has either been given an old stove or bought one for short money. Either way "just a grand" for a new Englander is not in their reality
  25. bholler

    bholler Minister of Fire

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    Well neither of those applies to me i just installed mine and spent close to 1000 to fix it up. But i love cawleys and they burn really clean to
    Shwammy likes this.

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