Need simple operating procedure help on CC100 Country Comfort

[unpolire]

Unusual situation. Renting a house with granite floors outside the USA with a 1985 Country Comfort CC100 installed as the only heat source. The house remains 10 degrees Farenheit below the outside temperature at all times. As I am renting, I cannot change out the unit and the absentee owner rented it out without knowing if the fireplace worked. A good stock of seasoned dry firewood in a storage room gave me promise.

I scoured all information available throughout the Internet on this model. I have inspected the chimney top to bottom via camera and disassembled the interior, cleaned all, and replaced the decrepit original fire wool that was clogging the vents around the secondary combustion chamber with modern ceramic insulation. I am currently rebuilding the 1.05 amp blower motor as it was inoperable from disuse or material contamination from not being maintained since 1985. There is a printed warning on the data plate of the blower housing, "Warning - risk of smoke and flame spillage, operate only with doors fully open or closed."

In addition to the opening door and the flue control, there is a closable sliding door on the upper right of the unit and two spring-loaded air control doors at the base of the unit on each side of the electric blower option. Since I do not know the proper fire starting procedure, I wind up with my started fires dying out from lack of airflow once the door is closed. There is great draft. There are no obstructions. Wood is good and dry. I simply need to know which doors to open and close and when.

I know that these units are famous for smoking, but Americans installed this professionally years ago and I am certain that it worked well. I just don't know how to start it. Any and all help and guidance with starting and maintaining the fire will be greatly appreciated.

 

[coaly]

I don’t believe those Inserts had a flue collar, and were originally designed to set in place using the existing chimney. First make sure it has a liner connected to it, and that it is not using the original fireplace flue.

 

[unpolire]

I don’t believe those Inserts had a flue collar, and were originally designed to set in place using the existing chimney. First make sure it has a liner connected to it, and that it is not using the original fireplace flue.

If it was originally installed as specified when new, are you saying that I must remove it and install a liner in the chimney for it to work as originally designed? To get air to the fire chamber? Or do you mean for modern safety standards I should not use the fireplace insert as installed? It's been used in the house since it was new. I just don't have the proper procedures to make it work 100%. I'm certain that others have been shown. In this case there is no person to demonstrate, no markings, and no manual to guide me. Only this forum between 45 degrees house interior and me!

 

[coaly]

The practice of installing an Insert into a fireplace using the existing flue proved to allow the hot exhaust gases to cool excessively when allowed to expand in the larger area. This forms creosote and slows incoming air. It is not only a safety issue, this causes problems making any Insert physically work.

NFPA -211 is revised every three years, and a direct connected liner has been required for many years. Professional sweeps and insurance companies will not assume the liability without being installed to the later requirements.

One issue is sealing the faceplate of the Insert to the hearth. Any leakage into chimney is dilution air cooling the exhaust gasses farther. When you understand what makes it work, you will understand the many reasons requiring the direct connection of the flue pipe.

Hot rising exhaust gases lighter than outdoor air rise up the flue creating a low pressure area in chimney flue and stove. This allows the higher atmospheric air pressure outside of the system to PUSH into the stove intake. This differential pressure is measured as draft.

Every stove has a required draft measured at the outlet. This is where the draft, or vacuum is strongest. In the case of an Insert, ALL the air moving up the flue must go through the firebox to get oxygen to the fire. Air pressure takes the path of least resistance around the Insert where it can leak into the flue. Around the faceplate, or any other cracks or openings into the low pressure area of the flue.

A “boot” is used to connect liner to the top of insert preventing this leakage. It also prevents the need for removing the Insert during cleaning since debris falls into firebox, not on top and behind it. Even if installed with a good seal originally, removal and improper sealing of the faceplate to masonry causes leakage and performance issues.

As hot gases expand, they cool. The object is keeping the flue gases above 250*f to the top before exiting. Below this critical temperature, water vapor from combustion condenses on flue walls allowing smoke particles to stick. This forms creosote. This is why the liner must be the same diameter as appliance outlet.

Finally, when a open fireplace is built, the fire burns freely without hindering oxygen to the fire. Much more heat is lost up the chimney, with minimal creosote formation. When a Insert or stove is connected, this changes the USE. It now must be brought up to current code. Fireplace chimneys do not have clearances and are not built to withstand creosote fires caused by oxygen depletion caused by a sealed firebox. The elevated temperature of burning creosote requires different clearances the chimney is built with. When these clearances are not met, an insulated liner is required. In many cases combustible framing is in direct contact with exterior of chimney.

All stoves benefit from an insulated liner. Many require it to generate the draft needed to make it work. A larger diameter flue is capable of more capacity. But it needs more heat to create the same draft as created in a smaller area. The more efficient the stove, the more critical this becomes with less heat loss up the chimney.

 

[unpolire]

Thank you. Well, that certainly is a thorough explanation of the combustion process in a fireplace insert. Based upon this, the problem that I am experiencing possibly has been present in the house since 1985. There is zero code enforcement or inspection or requirements here for building and safety.

Hopefully someone familiar with the operation of the CC100 will later provide the fire building procedure that I can use after removing the insert and installing a liner.

This is going to be entirely at my expense because, as a renter, I will have no investment in the process and it will benefit the owner and future renters. As far as the owner is concerned, there is a fireplace, period, and anything I do to improve it is for my personal use, not hers.

 

[RockyMtnGriz]

A good stock of seasoned dry firewood in a storage room gave me promise.

Another clue that the insert didn't actually work .

I believe what coaly is referring to is what is popularly called a "slammer" installation. Slam the insert into the fireplace, attach a faceplate, and call it done. It was very popular in the '80s. Some worked well enough, if the faceplate got a good seal, and regular proper cleanings, and others had a real tendency to burn the house down.

Here's a bump for you to find someone with experience with this unit.

 

[bholler]

Thank you. Well, that certainly is a thorough explanation of the combustion process in a fireplace insert. Based upon this, the problem that I am experiencing possibly has been present in the house since 1985. There is zero code enforcement or inspection or requirements here for building and safety.

Hopefully someone familiar with the operation of the CC100 will later provide the fire building procedure that I can use after removing the insert and installing a liner.

This is going to be entirely at my expense because, as a renter, I will have no investment in the process and it will benefit the owner and future renters. As far as the owner is concerned, there is a fireplace, period, and anything I do to improve it is for my personal use, not hers.

I strongly recommend not using that insert as is. They are no longer allowed because they are very dangerous and caused many house fires.

 

[unpolire]

Another clue that the insert didn't actually work .

I believe what coaly is referring to is what is popularly called a "slammer" installation. Slam the insert into the fireplace, attach a faceplate, and call it done. It was very popular in the '80s. Some worked well enough, if the faceplate got a good seal, and regular proper cleanings, and others had a real tendency to burn the house down.

Here's a bump for you to find someone with experience with this unit.

Thank you. The firewood was stored dry in a ventilated area indoors. House was unused for over a year, hence the inventory.

The faceplate is sealed well and the door has no leaks. It looks like a proper installation for the time with a purpose poured concrete base and custom mantle built around the finished installation. In fact it is not going to be at all simple to remove the unit and install a liner. Looks like the entire mantle and surround will need to be removed to allow access to the securing fittings for the insert.

 

[bholler]

Thank you. The firewood was stored dry in a ventilated area indoors. House was unused for over a year, hence the inventory.

The faceplate is sealed well and the door has no leaks. It looks like a proper installation for the time with a purpose poured concrete base and custom mantle built around the finished installation. In fact it is not going to be at all simple to remove the unit and install a liner. Looks like the entire mantle and surround will need to be removed to allow access to the securing fittings for the insert.

Sealed well or not it's dangerous especially if it can't be easily removed. That means there is no way to clean it properly

 

[unpolire]

Sealed well or not it's dangerous especially if it can't be easily removed. That means there is no way to clean it properly

Would a professional chimney sweep actually remove an insert to do a cleaning?

 

[bholler]

Would a professional chimney sweep actually remove an insert to do a cleaning?

That is the only way to clean one like this. But most professional sweeps including myself will refuse to work on these now because of safety and liability issues

 

[unpolire]

That is the only way to clean one like this. But most professional sweeps including myself will refuse to work on these now because of safety and liability issues

Would the installation of a modern liner make a difference, in your professional opinion, or should I just abandon the idea of ever successfully using it, after rebuilding all of the other components internally? I'll decide to remove it and add a modern liner based upon your reply, or leave it as-is and give up if it's futile. My previous rental had a great conventional open fireplace, so I got used to wood fires for heating and even bought my first chain saw for cutting dried logs down to fit.

 

[RockyMtnGriz]

If the insert is obviously difficult to remove, that would tell me that it's probably never been removed and properly cleaned. There could be a large creosote "bomb" lurking behind the faceplate. Caution and further investigation would be in order.

If a fireplace full of creosote behind the faceplate gets ignited, it can result in a 15' "refinery flare" off the top of the chimney, smoke damage to the home interior, and destruction of the flue. That's the best case scenario. If the fireplace / flue / faceplate isn't able to contain the intense heat, the structure will catch fire. Not trying to scare you, just want to make sure you know what you're dealing with. I saw this situation with regularity in the 80s and 90s as a firefighter. I haven't seen one of these go off for some time, but I'm sure I will again.

While this isn't now considered a safe installation, and I'm happy to see that most of them have gone away (though some went away dramatically), I think such an install can be safely used, but only if extra effort is made to keep it clean. The lack of a solid flue connection and liner means it's extremely prone to creosote collection, there's a lot more area to collect creosote in, and it's more susceptible to an intense, uncontrollable fire when the creosote ignites because the faceplates rarely seal well and can rapidly come to seal much less well when subjected to the intense heat of a creosote fire in the fireplace.

Another consideration: Is your custom mantle built all around the install combustible?

I personally would use such a setup, but only after I made sure it was properly clean and stayed that way. Then I would look to getting it squared away as quickly as possible with a proper flue connection and/or liner as needed. It may be that the easier approach would be to do the right thing in the first case, because to properly clean it pretty much means removing it each time.

 

[bholler]

Would the installation of a modern liner make a difference, in your professional opinion, or should I just abandon the idea of ever successfully using it, after rebuilding all of the other components internally? I'll decide to remove it and add a modern liner based upon your reply, or leave it as-is and give up if it's futile. My previous rental had a great conventional open fireplace, so I got used to wood fires for heating and even bought my first chain saw for cutting dried logs down to fit.

They can work ok once installed correctly but they are old stoves and not the best

 

[unpolire]

They can work ok once installed correctly but they are old stoves and not the best

Thank you very much for your professional advice. I will remove it and have a local chimney sweep clean the stonework. I'll clean the insert (I doubt thst they will know how...) and fit a liner from a well-known California fireplace store chain.

If the insert is obviously difficult to remove, that would tell me that it's probably never been removed and properly cleaned. There could be a large creosote "bomb" lurking behind the faceplate. Caution and further investigation would be in order.

If a fireplace full of creosote behind the faceplate gets ignited, it can result in a 15' "refinery flare" off the top of the chimney, smoke damage to the home interior, and destruction of the flue. That's the best case scenario. If the fireplace / flue / faceplate isn't able to contain the intense heat, the structure will catch fire. Not trying to scare you, just want to make sure you know what you're dealing with. I saw this situation with regularity in the 80s and 90s as a firefighter. I haven't seen one of these go off for some time, but I'm sure I will again.

While this isn't now considered a safe installation, and I'm happy to see that most of them have gone away (though some went away dramatically), I think such an install can be safely used, but only if extra effort is made to keep it clean. The lack of a solid flue connection and liner means it's extremely prone to creosote collection, there's a lot more area to collect creosote in, and it's more susceptible to an intense, uncontrollable fire when the creosote ignites because the faceplates rarely seal well and can rapidly come to seal much less well when subjected to the intense heat of a creosote fire in the fireplace.

Another consideration: Is your custom mantle built all around the install combustible?

I personally would use such a setup, but only after I made sure it was properly clean and stayed that way. Then I would look to getting it squared away as quickly as possible with a proper flue connection and/or liner as needed. It may be that the easier approach would be to do the right thing in the first case, because to properly clean it pretty much means removing it each time.

Very helpful! Interestingly, I noticed that the top of the chimney was partially destroyed and I thought that it was from high winds damage here above the Pacific. Could definitely have been from a fireplace disaster. The absentee owner had no knowledge of the cause and did not have it cosmetically repaired. Oddly, while the best feature of the house is the natural granite floor, the custom mantle and surround is entirely combustible wood! No marble or stone was used, probably due to cost.

 

[bholler]

Thank you very much for your professional advice. I will remove it and have a local chimney sweep clean the stonework. I'll clean the insert (I doubt thst they will know how...) and fit a liner from a well-known California fireplace store chain.

Very helpful! Interestingly, I noticed that the top of the chimney was partially destroyed and I thought that it was from high winds damage here above the Pacific. Could definitely have been from a fireplace disaster. The absentee owner had no knowledge of the cause and did not have it cosmetically repaired. Oddly, while the best feature of the house is the natural granite floor, the custom mantle and surround is entirely combustible wood! No marble or stone was used, probably due to cost.

So the surround preventing the insert from being removed is wood????

 

[coaly]

So the surround preventing the insert from being removed is wood????

Oh boy, 4 question marks is a record. Glad I wasn’t drinking coffee when I saw that.

 

[coaly]

Would a professional chimney sweep actually remove an insert to do a cleaning?

Check the bold sentence in my response above, post #4, paragraph 6. Not only a professional, but anyone cleaning the chimney would need to remove it to remove the debris removed from the flue. That stuff burns over 2000*f.

 

[unpolire]

So the surround preventing the insert from being removed is wood????

Just took a good luck at what it will take to remove the insert. It appears that after pouring a concrete base and placing the insert into the original fireplace opening, they sealed it to the surrounding brick wall with some caulking. Then, someone carefully constructed a wooden mantle with wooden sides and a wooden panel directly over the insert, finishing the wall. It all looks very nice, but I suspect, since there are no visible fasteners, that the mantle is glued to the brick wall, which will require removal in order to access the only two screws visible on the CC100 trim panel above the firebox. I'm certain that they never intended for this to ever be removed again and did their best to be "professional," but this is Baja, California. Great craftsmanship for the area and the job, but an unfamiliar American fireplace with a blower, an unusually exotic item to be installed with only the materials available.

It looks so well made (the Country Comfort) and properly installed, at a casual glance, that I never dreamed of ever removing it! Looks like a 100% permanent fireplace. If not for this forum, I would have just hired a local chimney sweep to clean and repair the chimney and show me how to start a fire in it! No way they would have ever dreamed of removing an insert. Probably never even seen one before in this area. I have three neighboring horses who come over to do my "gardening."

 

[unpolire]

Check the bold sentence in my response above, post #4, paragraph 6. Not only a professional, but anyone cleaning the chimney would need to remove it to remove the debris removed from the flue. That stuff burns over 2000*f.

When I read this in your reply,

"The practice of installing an Insert into a fireplace using the existing flue proved to allow the hot exhaust gases to cool excessively when allowed to expand in the larger area. This forms creosote and slows incoming air. It is not only a safety issue, this causes problems making any Insert physically work."

...I was stunned and then realized that such a seemingly well-made American product was sold without previous knowledge of this. Seems like there was the science that should have made your statement a logical conclusion when they were designing these inserts. Were they ever recalled as potentially dangerous?

 

[bholler]

When I read this in your reply,

"The practice of installing an Insert into a fireplace using the existing flue proved to allow the hot exhaust gases to cool excessively when allowed to expand in the larger area. This forms creosote and slows incoming air. It is not only a safety issue, this causes problems making any Insert physically work."

...I was stunned and then realized that such a seemingly well-made American product was sold without previous knowledge of this. Seems like there was the science that should have made your statement a logical conclusion when they were designing these inserts. Were they ever recalled as potentially dangerous?

No they were never recalled that is how all inserts at the time were made. It didn't take long to realize it was dangerous and didn't work all that well so codes were changed to make that type of install no longer acceptable.

 

[coaly]

When I read this in your reply,

"The practice of installing an Insert into a fireplace using the existing flue proved to allow the hot exhaust gases to cool excessively when allowed to expand in the larger area. This forms creosote and slows incoming air. It is not only a safety issue, this causes problems making any Insert physically work."

...I was stunned and then realized that such a seemingly well-made American product was sold without previous knowledge of this. Seems like there was the science that should have made your statement a logical conclusion when they were designing these inserts. Were they ever recalled as potentially dangerous?

To give you an idea of how much cooling there is when the hot exhaust gasses expand, a 6 inch round to 8 inch round is almost twice the square inch area inside. This drops the temperature in half! Since gases are required to stay above 250*f to the top, 500*f exiting which is normal drops to 250* where it expands into the 8 inch. This drops temperature down to 250* at the bottom, cooling more as it rises. You can see how much below the condensing temperature flue gases become. Larger fireplaces had much larger flues dropping the temperature drastically. People had to burn so hot they lost more than necessary up the stack, and smaller stoves lost so much they couldn’t heat the area they were in. The smaller the stove the more critical chimney efficiency becomes.

This is why the older Inserts had larger outlets. This allowed more heat up the chimney, reducing efficiency to keep the flue hotter. Newer stoves and Inserts now have insulated baffles that prevents heat loss up the stack, having lower exhaust gas temperature, becoming more critical to have an insulated liner to stay hotter with less lost heat. The newer appliances also burn more smoke particles in the stove, so flue temperature becomes less important with fewer particles to form the creosote.

One trick with older Inserts without glass doors was to heat the chimney flue well by burning with doors open and fire screen in place. This brings the flue temperature up before closing doors and closing the air down for a longer burn. Manuals stated to do this daily.

As you can see, the easier it is to keep the flue hot inside with an insulated liner, the less heat you need to leave up, making the Insert more efficient using less fuel.

 

[unpolire]

To give you an idea of how much cooling there is when the hot exhaust gasses expand, a 6 inch round to 8 inch round is almost twice the square inch area inside. This drops the temperature in half! Since gases are required to stay above 250*f to the top, 500*f exiting which is normal drops to 250* where it expands into the 8 inch. This drops temperature down to 250* at the bottom, cooling more as it rises. You can see how much below the condensing temperature flue gases become. Larger fireplaces had much larger flues dropping the temperature drastically. People had to burn so hot they lost more than necessary up the stack, and smaller stoves lost so much they couldn’t heat the area they were in. The smaller the stove the more critical chimney efficiency becomes.

This is why the older Inserts had larger outlets. This allowed more heat up the chimney, reducing efficiency to keep the flue hotter. Newer stoves and Inserts now have insulated baffles that prevents heat loss up the stack, having lower exhaust gas temperature, becoming more critical to have an insulated liner to stay hotter with less lost heat. The newer appliances also burn more smoke particles in the stove, so flue temperature becomes less important with fewer particles to form the creosote.

One trick with older Inserts without glass doors was to heat the chimney flue well by burning with doors open and fire screen in place. This brings the flue temperature up before closing doors and closing the air down for a longer burn. Manuals stated to do this daily.

As you can see, the easier it is to keep the flue hot inside with an insulated liner, the less heat you need to leave up, making the Insert more efficient using less fuel.

Thank you for more information than I ever imagined on fireplaces!

If I remove it, clean all of the creosote, repair the the chimney top, and install an insulated liner, I will come back and post so that someone can help me with correct operation of the upgraded insert in as safe a manner as possible, starting like new.

 

[bholler]

Thank you for more information than I ever imagined on fireplaces!

If I remove it, clean all of the creosote, repair the the chimney top, and install an insulated liner, I will come back and post so that someone can help me with correct operation of the upgraded insert in as safe a manner as possible, starting like new.

Before putting the money and effort into. Installing this insert correctly post some pictures of it including the interior of it hasn't been maintained properly it may not be worth installing properly

 

[unpolire]

Before putting the money and effort into. Installing this insert correctly post some pictures of it including the interior of it hasn't been maintained properly it may not be worth installing properly