O
oldspark
Guest
I dont think you were reading the links we were providing for you, sometimes its best to just farm things out. Have a good one and I dont like giving out electrical advice on a forum so I hope not to do this again.
oldspark said:I dont think you were reading the links we were providing for you, sometimes its best to just farm things out. Have a good one and I dont like giving out electrical advice on a forum so I hope not to do this again.
Battenkiller said:My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated. :lol:
I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks. I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:
oldspark said:I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.
NATE379 said:You don't need 200 amp service to correct your breaker issue if all you need is more room in the panel. Yes you could get a larger panel but that is quite a bit of work to put in, all to just add a breaker.
Look to see if your brand of panel carries "2 in 1" breakers, like this: http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q2020-120-Volt-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B00002N7KW
You could combine 4 breaker spaces into 2 and then that would give you room for that 240v breaker for your sub panel. Not all panels allow this, you NEED to use the same brand breakers as the panel and also those breakers need to say it's ok on the model of your panel.
This also applies with regular breakers as well.
I do agree with the others please have a electrician take a look at your work, even if it's just a friend that is in the know.
Don2222 said:oldspark said:I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.
Hello oldspark
Well thanks again, I looked up more detail and found a better explanation that I was looking for.
Also thanks for being honest in saying that it may never happen in my small shed in the back yard since I did not use metal conduit.
It seems Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) can cause these stray voltages you are refering to.
It seems the major cause is:
1. Older local electric utilities that do not distinguish between ground and neutral like in the old days!
2. Old Motors in farm equipment with excessive leakage currents.
Quote from link below
1.
"The electrical utilities do all of the wrong things relative to stray voltage. They consider ground to be the same as neutral and they connect the primary neutral and the secondary neutral together at their distribution transformers."
2.
"Farmers need to select electrical equipment, including lights, that will not generate excessive ground currents. Lighting ballast, electrical motors and auto-transformers are primary sources of leakage current even when they are UL approved and working correctly. All electrical equipment needs to be tested for leakage before it is installed. If the leakage currents is in excess of 1 milliamps (0.001 Amps), then the equipment should not be used. If you must use it, then special precautions must be taken in the electrical system design."
See
http://www.bassengineering.com/SV_Cause.htm
Don2222 said:Battenkiller said:My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated. :lol:
I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks. I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:
That's nice if you can afford it!
So far I spent
$142.00 for 95 feet of # 10-3 UF-B direct burial wire from Lowes
$30.00 for 2 circuit load center and 2 20 amp breakers from Home Depot
$8.50 for Main Load Center Panel Breaker
$20.00 for gray PVC conduit and clamps to protect the AC wires on side of house and side of shed.
$31.00 for 12-2 wire for shed outlets
$6.00 for 1st shed outlet
Total $237.50
My own labor for digging a trench 2 - 3 feet deep and 27 Feet long. Code is minimum 18 inches deep.
So if you can hire someone to do it for double that you would be doing very well!!
Ok, electricians how much is the going rate for the 1st outlet in a shed like this that meets all code requirements??
That is a good book. I had one at one time, loaned it out, never got it back, lesson learned.CTwoodburner said:This B&D Guide for Electrical has been very helpful to me. I have two friends who have helped me to make sure I wire everything correctly BUT i have educated myself with this book. It has just about everything you need. Used for $4 is a steal!!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...;=&qid;=&sr;=&seller;=&colid;=&condition=used
NATE379 said:What do you think the cost would be if your burned your house down or killed someone?
Don2222 said:Battenkiller said:My lord, and I thought drying wood was complicated. :lol:
I'll be a first time homeowner in a couple weeks. I think I'll let somebody else run the electric to my shed. :coolsmirk:
That's nice if you can afford it!
So far I spent
$142.00 for 95 feet of # 10-3 UF-B direct burial wire from Lowes
$30.00 for 2 circuit load center and 2 20 amp breakers from Home Depot
$8.50 for Main Load Center Panel Breaker
$20.00 for gray PVC conduit and clamps to protect the AC wires on side of house and side of shed.
$31.00 for 12-2 wire for shed outlets
$6.00 for 1st shed outlet
Total $237.50
My own labor for digging a trench 2 - 3 feet deep and 27 Feet long. Code is minimum 18 inches deep.
So if you can hire someone to do it for double that you would be doing very well!!
Ok, electricians how much is the going rate for the 1st outlet in a shed like this that meets all code requirements??
burnham said:Don2222 said:oldspark said:I think it was touched on before, you create a parallel path for the returning current (neutral) even under normal conditions it can cause all sorts of weird things espicially if you are using metal conduit and have loose connections that can over heat, the fact of the matter is you may never have a problem wiring it that way but it is not worth the risk. I hope that is the answer you are looking for.
Hello oldspark
Well thanks again, I looked up more detail and found a better explanation that I was looking for.
Also thanks for being honest in saying that it may never happen in my small shed in the back yard since I did not use metal conduit.
It seems Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) can cause these stray voltages you are refering to.
It seems the major cause is:
1. Older local electric utilities that do not distinguish between ground and neutral like in the old days!
2. Old Motors in farm equipment with excessive leakage currents.
Quote from link below
1.
"The electrical utilities do all of the wrong things relative to stray voltage. They consider ground to be the same as neutral and they connect the primary neutral and the secondary neutral together at their distribution transformers."
2.
"Farmers need to select electrical equipment, including lights, that will not generate excessive ground currents. Lighting ballast, electrical motors and auto-transformers are primary sources of leakage current even when they are UL approved and working correctly. All electrical equipment needs to be tested for leakage before it is installed. If the leakage currents is in excess of 1 milliamps (0.001 Amps), then the equipment should not be used. If you must use it, then special precautions must be taken in the electrical system design."
See
http://www.bassengineering.com/SV_Cause.htm
No, this has nothing to do with what oldspark was trying to warn you about. He was speaking of circulating currents. The link you posted is aimed more toward dairy farms where cows stand around in their own (conductive) piss all day while hooked to milking machines, and crap into a pit that has an auger in it....that's driven by an electric motor.
The fact that the primary and secondary neutrals are probably bonded together at the transformer that feeds your house isn't a problem, the problem is you have just enough electrical knowledge to be dangerous.
woodgeek said:Ahem, not to speak for oldspark, but this is not about induced or stray current effects, its about you not having a ground in your shed. Of course, there are worse things than not having a ground (you could have installed two-prong out there), but the way you've done it, it looks like it has a ground (three prong) but it really doesn't!
As a fault example, imagine a tool/appliance where the motor runs hot to neutral, and the metal case is tied to ground. Thirty years from now, under load, you get an open circuit in your neutral/ground line, due to corrosion and arcing caused by rainwater getting into that new 200 amp panel you are going to get (that silicone caulking was on sale after its expiration, and never did set up right). Now the case on the appliance is tied to hot, zotting the next owner of your home, George Jetson, as he stands in his crocs in a well grounded puddle during a rainstorm. Poor Jane. If you had not tied the ground and neutral wires together way back in 2012, however, the appliance loses juice, but George is protected by a still grounded case, even as he curses you and your now ancient DIY wiring and—vigorously shaking his fist—slips and drops the tool (with the still live hot) into the puddle he is standing in. What a schlemiel.
At the same time, unknown to George, far above the rainclouds, a solar flare has caused an impressive aurora borealis display. The induced currents have troubled the young engineers at the local utility, knocking the new cold fusion plant offline temporarily. Of course, it has also induced 347 millivolts between the tool and the ground point in your/George's main breaker panel. George doesn't notice, and goes and takes a hot shower.
oldspark said:Stray currents can be one of the problems wireng it the way he did (look it up believe me I did and found it in many places) but there are all sorts of things that could happen down the road but the stray currents are the biggest concern with tieing the neutral and ground together on the load side (to the point of tripping devices not working correctly) and once again do not take my work for it look it up its every where . I will NOT wire in a sub panel (actually a non service panel) with out a ground rod period, do you plan on putting a ground rod in Don, just wire it according to code and correct the problems mentioned here and you will be fine.
Don2222 said:Hello Woodgeek
Sorry, You did not do your homework on this one. You may want to go to your nearest home depot and look at the outdoor 10-3 UF-B wire. It does have a bare ground wire and in my case it goes to the main panel buss and is grounded!!
woodgeek said:Don2222 said:Hello Woodgeek
Sorry, You did not do your homework on this one. You may want to go to your nearest home depot and look at the outdoor 10-3 UF-B wire. It does have a bare ground wire and in my case it goes to the main panel buss and is grounded!!
Um, the picture is exactly what I have a beef with. I know you ran four wires, including the ground wire. The beef is that you tied that ground wire to the neutral on the sub-panel AND the main panel (IIRC). It is now not a ground--it is an uninsulated neutral wire! There has been some discussion here about whether the sub-panel ground should be tied via this conductor to the main panel ground, OR to a separate grounding rod near the shed. Seems to me like six of one, half a dozen of the other--depends ultimately on distance: short distance tie in the wire, long go with a rod. Neither option is what you have done.
When we saw the ground tied to the neutral at the subpanel, (the picture above) all of our heads exploded, and we told you to not do that. You have been talking skeptically about stray currents since then, and do not appear to appreciate that you have wired things incorrectly.
We use essential cookies to make this site work, and optional cookies to enhance your experience.