New Construction Dilemma

[SAABseanSCANIA]

Hey gang,

New here in NH.

Here's the rundown: Going through the rigamoreau of a New Build and in the process I've requested that the bump-out intended for a gas fireplace be used for an insert. I was told that it wasn't a problem but they would need to install a "firebox" and that I should visit a pellet stove dealer to see what my options are.

Here's the dilemma: My intentions were to have the bump-out and the hearth constructed in a manner that would still be aesthetically pleasing until I was financially sound enough (after a massive closing) to purchase a nice insert. What this meant to me was having everything THERE, but purchasing the insert at a slightly later date (couple months at most). During my visit to a pellet stove dealer I was told that this absolutely can't be done and I NEED to purchase the whole package now.

His point was that I need to install a firebox, piping, and the frame (of which I understand the high temp gasket for the flue mates to when the stove is inserted) all at this time. He said I can't purchase a frame separate because it comes with the stove. This is believable but I'm sure I'm not the first to try out this game plan.

Long story short I am now exploring my options to NOT have to purchase everything at this time. The builder will install whatever I need, within my allowance negotiated, and leave it so I can do what I want to do; if the dealer is correct I have to run out and purchase this cash (sounds like basically today I have to do this). I don't want to make a decision then end up tearing up the siding/bumpout or the hearth.

I imagine the dimensions of the opening and bump out would help you guys:
Bump out: (est.) Depth 24"+
Width 36"+
Height 36"+

Opening: (what they told me) 35-1/2" X 35-1/2"

The main thing is that I was explained that some stoves got their UL approvals with the zero clearance fireboxes and some didn't. Would I have a better option in my situation going with one over the other? I'm sure there's a solution.

On another note, I only got to view Quadrafires and Harmans. I was not particular on the aesthetics of the Harmans, but I was pointed in that direction because of the way they operate (possibly because of the base stove was 1600 bucks more as well). Do you guys have any manufacturers you're happy with? What seems to be the best bang for the buck (brand)? I'm contacting another dealer today. It could be that he wanted to really sell a package in the middle of a heat wave (when we all know everyone is "rushing in" to buy stoves).

Thanks,
Sean

 

[smwilliamson]

What you are considering is called a zero clearance install, so you can only install an insert that is rated for zero clearance, whether you cement board it all up or not...it is still NOT a masonry installation.

The actual dimensions or set backs from combustible surfaces depends on what insert you're considering. If the stove is is rated for zero clearance, the installation manual will guide you to what the minimal distances are. That said, you should build your dog house as large as you can. The measurements provided will accommodate just about any insert I can imagine. I know the Harman Z box will fit in there and that's about as big as they get.

NOT ALL INSERTS ARE RATED FOR ZERO CLEARANCE! So don't just think you can put anything in there.

Both the Harman Accentra and the P35i require the Harman Zero Clearance kit, part number 1-00-674070 to be installed to be installed to properly meet the UL listing. I have used (shhhhh don't tell anyone) an existing metal box from a gas insert before, but that's not really code if you go by the book.

Some manufacturers will require the inside of the dog house to be constructed with cement board, some just require a minimal set back inside....durock is not a bad idea anyway but cannot be done in lieu of a metal box if required nor does doing it make the install a "masonry" installation.

If you are doing any type of installation that requires the z box...like a Harman, you really need to consider doing the box and the stove chassis (comes with the stove) at the same time OR you have to cut a big hole in the exterior siding to connect the pipes...it is very very very very hard to build the venting through the top of the z box through a 4 inch hole. kinda like building the ship in the bottle.

All Quads inserts are rated for zero clearance without any modifications and may be your easiest install. Just Durock the box and when you come to install, just cut your venting hole assemble and chuck the insert in there.

NOTE: if you go with the AE insert by quad, you are going to want to install sheet metal on the floor of this box prior to setting in the unit. This pig is wicked heavy and will dig in to the floor every time you move it to access the venting for cleaning. PITA!

For Enviro, only the EF3 bi and the Enviro M55, p.22 of the owners manual are rated for z clearance. A big NO on the Milan and the Empress

Napoleon NPS45 and Timber Wolf products are rated

Englander Evolution Insert is too

Breckwell has 1 that is but stay away from them.

You'll have to to scout it out, there should be about a dozen or so inserts you can put in there and any stove which is rated for zero clearance should fit the opening you have.

To recap choices: Harman Accentra or P35i, Any quad (MtV AE, Castille, Sante Fe, CB 1200i, Flex60), Napoleon, Timber Wolf, Englander Evolution, St. Croix York Insert, Enviro M55 or EF3bi

 

[smoke show]

Listen to Scott. He's the man.

 

[smwilliamson]

okay I just went through this again...basically, there are only a few choices for inserts that look nice, perform well and are z approved

Harman Accentra, but you will need the z box and stove chassis and venting. They all need to be installed together, but you could Durock the inside of the box until you get to it. If you're going with this option, and your dog house has a hearth which is flush with the floor, make sure you build your box with an inset drop down in the floor 3/4" so the box will fit flush with your hearth tile etc...if not, the stove will be hanging up in the air 3/4"

All quads will slip right in, no problem. I'm not a big fan of the MtV AE...I want to like it but the thing is very heavily dependent on very fragile electronics, I'd take a CB1200i any day

The Enviro M55 (also Regency GC60I) is an awesome multi-fuel stove but is the most expensive of all. If you are considering this...read up on the owners manual, p.22, there are a lot of measurements to consider., but this unit will slide right in with it's own rail kit that comes with the unit.

For cheap, The Englander Evolution from HD or Lowes is a fine little insert and much cheaper than the rest. Just durock the unit and shove it in.

Not a big fan of too much else int the way of inserts.

 

[SAABseanSCANIA]

What you are considering is called a zero clearance install, so you can only install an insert that is rated for zero clearance, whether you cement board it all up or not...it is still NOT a masonry installation.

The actual dimensions or set backs from combustible surfaces depends on what insert you're considering. If the stove is is rated for zero clearance, the installation manual will guide you to what the minimal distances are. That said, you should build your dog house as large as you can. The measurements provided will accommodate just about any insert I can imagine. I know the Harman Z box will fit in there and that's about as big as they get.

NOT ALL INSERTS ARE RATED FOR ZERO CLEARANCE! So don't just think you can put anything in there.

Both the Harman Accentra and the P35i require the Harman Zero Clearance kit, part number 1-00-674070 to be installed to be installed to properly meet the UL listing. I have used (shhhhh don't tell anyone) an existing metal box from a gas insert before, but that's not really code if you go by the book.

Some manufacturers will require the inside of the dog house to be constructed with cement board, some just require a minimal set back inside....durock is not a bad idea anyway but cannot be done in lieu of a metal box if required nor does doing it make the install a "masonry" installation.

If you are doing any type of installation that requires the z box...like a Harman, you really need to consider doing the box and the stove chassis (comes with the stove) at the same time OR you have to cut a big hole in the exterior siding to connect the pipes...it is very very very very hard to build the venting through the top of the z box through a 4 inch hole. kinda like building the ship in the bottle.

All Quads inserts are rated for zero clearance without any modifications and may be your easiest install. Just Durock the box and when you come to install, just cut your venting hole assemble and chuck the insert in there.

NOTE: if you go with the AE insert by quad, you are going to want to install sheet metal on the floor of this box prior to setting in the unit. This pig is wicked heavy and will dig in to the floor every time you move it to access the venting for cleaning. PITA!

For Enviro, only the EF3 bi and the Enviro M55, p.22 of the owners manual are rated for z clearance. A big NO on the Milan and the Empress

Napoleon NPS45 and Timber Wolf products are rated

Englander Evolution Insert is too

Breckwell has 1 that is but stay away from them.

You'll have to to scout it out, there should be about a dozen or so inserts you can put in there and any stove which is rated for zero clearance should fit the opening you have.

To recap choices: Harman Accentra or P35i, Any quad (MtV AE, Castille, Sante Fe, CB 1200i, Flex60), Napoleon, Timber Wolf, Englander Evolution, St. Croix York Insert, Enviro M55 or EF3bi

Scott,

What I was told seems right in line; somewhat. He did tell me that the Quadrafire didn't require the extra $309 zero clearance box that the harman did (although he told me I'd have to literally clean it everyday, not sure of the validity of that but hey what do I know). So if I were to purchase just the Quad stove (I like the classic 1200i as far as looks go) and the venting at this time, would that be a good route to go? Another part of the endeavour that you most certainly could answer is the cost thing (as far as install).

He had the stove at something like $2699 base price (but includes the major hardware like the frame I would assume). He kept saying over and over that I would probably be looking at around $4,000 for it all said and done. I asked multiple times what the other $1300 was for and he said the installation and piping. I'm new but I've read the articles about "magic piping" that costs 500 bucks for a couple feet; think that might be some of the $1300? Either way, he had no definitive breakdown, just that it ends up being that much installed. Labor rates must be comparable to Ferrari of New England then. Plus, everything is wide open, the house is being built. I had mentioned that and he said it's really nothing different then an existing home (sorry I can't believe that because access is open). If his install estimate seems in line please set me straight but give me some clue as to what is being paid for. Because I have an allowance for this thing, I'm certainly looking to the builder to cough up some dough for the box, durock, sheet metal, piping, or whatever. Cost out of pocket a month before closing is what I'm trying to "minimize".

If I were to go this route, I will definitely keep the weight of the Quad in mind and have steel plating set down. Is the interior cement board a code requirement for the Quad (particularly the 1200i)? I've got to figure all this out pretty quick, the builder is waiting on a decision on what I need to do!

Too bad you're below Boston; I've already gotten more USEFULL info from you then the 45 mins I spent yesterday.

 

[SAABseanSCANIA]

okay I just went through this again...basically, there are only a few choices for inserts that look nice, perform well and are z approved

Harman Accentra, but you will need the z box and stove chassis and venting. They all need to be installed together, but you could Durock the inside of the box until you get to it. If you're going with this option, and your dog house has a hearth which is flush with the floor, make sure you build your box with an inset drop down in the floor 3/4" so the box will fit flush with your hearth tile etc...if not, the stove will be hanging up in the air 3/4"

All quads will slip right in, no problem. I'm not a big fan of the MtV AE...I want to like it but the thing is very heavily dependent on very fragile electronics, I'd take a CB1200i any day

The Enviro M55 (also Regency GC60I) is an awesome multi-fuel stove but is the most expensive of all. If you are considering this...read up on the owners manual, p.22, there are a lot of measurements to consider., but this unit will slide right in with it's own rail kit that comes with the unit.

For cheap, The Englander Evolution from HD or Lowes is a fine little insert and much cheaper than the rest. Just durock the unit and shove it in.

Not a big fan of too much else int the way of inserts.

So are you saying that if I just have them case in the dog house (bump out) with durock (cement board right?) I can have options later down the road?

Just googled the Englander Evolution; looks pretty good. I like basic, the ornate stuff like Harman won't go in the house at all. Why so cheap? (well let's define "cheap"). I noticed that it doesn't have a thermostat or that it's "thermostat adaptable".

Question on the Tstat. If I have 2 zones for the propane FHA system (1st and 2nd floors), would I have to wire another thermostat for the stove? In essence, keeping the setpoint for the stove higher than the FHA for economical reasons? (ex: upstairs 62F FHA setpoint, downstairs 66F FHA, downstairs 70F pellet stove) That sound like a cost savings or do I have this all wrong? Seems like having an automated system with Tstat for the stove would be the way to go; the downstairs is fairly open anyways with ceiling fans.

 

[SAABseanSCANIA]

okay I just went through this again...basically, there are only a few choices for inserts that look nice, perform well and are z approved

Harman Accentra, but you will need the z box and stove chassis and venting. They all need to be installed together, but you could Durock the inside of the box until you get to it. If you're going with this option, and your dog house has a hearth which is flush with the floor, make sure you build your box with an inset drop down in the floor 3/4" so the box will fit flush with your hearth tile etc...if not, the stove will be hanging up in the air 3/4"

All quads will slip right in, no problem. I'm not a big fan of the MtV AE...I want to like it but the thing is very heavily dependent on very fragile electronics, I'd take a CB1200i any day

The Enviro M55 (also Regency GC60I) is an awesome multi-fuel stove but is the most expensive of all. If you are considering this...read up on the owners manual, p.22, there are a lot of measurements to consider., but this unit will slide right in with it's own rail kit that comes with the unit.

For cheap, The Englander Evolution from HD or Lowes is a fine little insert and much cheaper than the rest. Just durock the unit and shove it in.

Not a big fan of too much else int the way of inserts.

Just checked Lowes.com and it appears to be called a Summers Heat 2000. Looks identical. $1699 before my military discount sounds friggin amazing to me right now, plus the 5% using the lowes card...

If that's the route I chose can you give me the pros/cons of the unit? How hard would having it on a Tstat be? Install feasible by myself (pretty handy MMA marine engineer)? Any other issues I would run into? Can the Durock just box the inside of the dog house (bump out)? Any mortered joints required? Any additional bracing (unit weight is 270lb)?

 

[smwilliamson]

Just checked Lowes.com and it appears to be called a Summers Heat 2000. Looks identical. $1699 before my military discount sounds friggin amazing to me right now, plus the 5% using the lowes card...

If that's the route I chose can you give me the pros/cons of the unit? How hard would having it on a Tstat be? Install feasible by myself (pretty handy MMA marine engineer)? Any other issues I would run into? Can the Durock just box the inside of the dog house (bump out)? Any mortered joints required? Any additional bracing (unit weight is 270lb)?

It's a great unit. It can run on a thermostat. No worries. Cons of a Englander (summers Heat) is that there is NO dealer service implied in the purchase, though they have the best customer service parts, warranty or otherwise. You can install it yourself or with the contractor but if you prefer, you can hire out to someone specialized like me. Not sure where you are located but stay away from chimney sweeps for this kind of install. . Note...Lowes also sells venting. DO NOT BUY THE VENTING THERE...it isn't going to work in your set up, you need pro series piping with 1" clearances, and something that can bend so you can move the stove out to service it. That's the tricky part. . Venting for that kind of install will run you $350 or so, you'll thank me later on.

The CB 1200...sounds like they are over selling their venting and install labor a wee bit, maybe not. Venting should not exceed $350 retail and labor maybe $500 possibly $700 if it is complicated or requires reworking of the dog house.

 

[DBCOOPER]

The Quadrafire 1200i requires a shroud and some floor protection to do what you want to do. From the manual....

F. Floor Protection
1. Zero Clearance Installations*
It is necessary to install a fl oor protection of non-combustible
material with a R value of 3.0 (1 inch [25mm] minimum
thickness with a “k” value of 0.58) or a 1 inch (25mm) air
space between insert base and hearth.
2. Non-Zero Clearance Installations*
A non-combustible fl oor protector is required with a minimum
R value of 3.0 (1 inch [25mm] minimum thickness with
a “k” value of 0.58) extending 6 inches (153mm) in front of
the insert and 8 inches (203mm) to each side of the door
opening.
* See alternate fl oor protection worksheet.

If I had to do it over and was building a bump out I wouldn't get an insert. Free standing stoves are much easier to service and can set back into the bump out if you build it right. Its tough to design without the manual for the unit you want to install

 

[DexterDay]

The CB 1200 is a Heat Monster. Looks nice and Works well.. Used my Freestanding unit to heat my house for a few seasons before adding a wood stove amd Pellet furnace last season...

The Quad still does about 50% of the work. Above about 30°, we use the Quad. Below 30° the Pellet furnace.

The Englander has some of the best customer service in the industry. Also runs in On/Off and Hi/Low..... Thats a nice feature too.

But Quads simplicity is nice. 3 heat levels. When I only had the Quad. I used Low Heat about 90% of the time. It had to get below 10° before I would bump it to Medium firing. Im heating a 2,200 sq ft Ranch..