New Declaration Plus insert installed (before and after pics) but the installer said to burn on high

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bspooky

Member
Nov 21, 2011
26
midwest
OK, I read on here somebody else's starting technique for the Declaration Plus insert (2-3 medium logs, leave door ajar for 15-20 minutes, close door and if it stays going well close bypass dampener, then when temps up to 450 internal (350 on his door thermometer) bump the air intake down (er, pull out lever and push in 3/8th and inch) but my installer seemed to think it was preferable to just let it rip, burning with a full air intake all the time.

And the manual says burn small hot fires. But also talks about how to do an overnight burn. So what is it, burn hot, blazing fires or slower burns? I am confused!!!

Before (super deep box that didn't heat well at all):


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After (only 2 fires so far and a bit disappointed in heat output, but my wood is at 20% moisture and I am wonder if that is why):

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BTW, my infrread/laser temp thingy when I point it in does seem to give readings, but is it working through the glass or at the glass? Guess I will have to open the doors and take with and without glass to find out. LOL
 
Do you have the blower going? I have a insert that sticks out quite a bit, but without the blower going I don't get much heat. I imagine you really have to crank that blower for your install.
 
Hankjones said:
Do you have the blower going? I have a insert that sticks out quite a bit, but without the blower going I don't get much heat. I imagine you really have to crank that blower for your install.

The blower comes included on that model.
 
bspooky said:
but my installer seemed to think it was preferable to just let it rip, burning with a full air intake all the time.


Full air on cold starts and reloads works well. You will want to close the air down in stages to achieve a long, hot, and efficient burn.


Leaving the air full open all the time causes makes the stove less efficient, and throws more heat up the liner.

If you have wet wood, you will have to have the air fully open longer than if you are using good, dry wood.
 
Yup, blower is in there. On first fire I tried to keep it on medium so I didn't hear it much. Next night I cranked it to full and that did make a difference, but while the several feet in front of the fireplace you could feel the warmth coming off of it, after 4 hours the rest of the room wasn't any warmer. It didn't get colder in the room (furnace had it up to 69 when I got home, it was about 25 outside and after the fire got going I turned the furnace off) and stayed even, but I was hoping it could get it up to low 70s rather easily. It is a big room, 1,000 square feet with the fireplace in the middle (so part of the room is behind the fireplace) but the Declaration is suppose to heat up to 2,000 square feet.!/2 the room's ceilings (behind fireplace) are normal 9 foot ceilings, the ceiling in the other hal his probably 12 sloping down to 9 as you get further way from the fireplace. So half normal, half sorta vaulted.

New to this, just learning and also questioning my wood (some right at 20% moisture on fresh splits, other a few percent left, other at 22-24% I am sticking back out to dry for next year) moisture.
 
BrowningBAR said:
bspooky said:
but my installer seemed to think it was preferable to just let it rip, burning with a full air intake all the time.


Full air on cold starts and reloads works well. You will want to close the air down in stages to achieve a long, hot, and efficient burn.

...

Thanks for the advice. Any measurable way of knowing what stages to close air down? i.e. certain temps? Or just got to play with it and develop a feel?

Edited to add: BrowningBar, is that trail notes your site? That looks like a great idea!!! Also, arms burnt....I need to add that already to my sig. One after two fires. eek!
 
bspooky said:
BrowningBAR said:
bspooky said:
but my installer seemed to think it was preferable to just let it rip, burning with a full air intake all the time.


Full air on cold starts and reloads works well. You will want to close the air down in stages to achieve a long, hot, and efficient burn.

...

Thanks for the advice. Any measurable way of knowing what stages to close air down? i.e. certain temps? Or just got to play with it and develop a feel?


It varies depending upon the stove and you have to figure out what the stove likes. One the fire grabs hold of the wood, begin closing down the air in stages. Slowly.

If you have good, dry wood, this will be an easier process to develop. If your wood is a bit wet, this process will take longer to figure out.
 
bspooky said:
BrowningBAR said:
bspooky said:
but my installer seemed to think it was preferable to just let it rip, burning with a full air intake all the time.


Full air on cold starts and reloads works well. You will want to close the air down in stages to achieve a long, hot, and efficient burn.

...

Thanks for the advice. Any measurable way of knowing what stages to close air down? i.e. certain temps? Or just got to play with it and develop a feel?

Edited to add: BrowningBar, is that trail notes your site? That looks like a great idea!!! Also, arms burnt....I need to add that already to my sig. One after two fires. eek!

Yes, the TrailNote site is mine. And yes, I end up burning my arms just above the glove line at some point during the winter. Enjoy your new stove and feel free to ask many questions.
 
bspooky said:
OK, I read on here somebody else's starting technique for the Declaration Plus insert (2-3 medium logs, leave door ajar for 15-20 minutes, close door and if it stays going well close bypass dampener, then when temps up to 450 internal (350 on his door thermometer) bump the air intake down (er, pull out lever and push in 3/8th and inch) but my installer seemed to think it was preferable to just let it rip, burning with a full air intake all the time.

And the manual says burn small hot fires. But also talks about how to do an overnight burn. So what is it, burn hot, blazing fires or slower burns? I am confused!!!

Before (super deep box that didn't heat well at all):

After (only 2 fires so far and a bit disappointed in heat output, but my wood is at 20% moisture and I am wonder if that is why):

BTW, my infrread/laser temp thingy when I point it in does seem to give readings, but is it working through the glass or at the glass? Guess I will have to open the doors and take with and without glass to find out. LOL

If you burn with draft full open, almost all of the heat goes right up the chimney. The rule of thumb we use is once the fire gets started with good flame we will dial down to about 50% draft. When the wood is charred, that is when we dial the draft down further. Each stove and each installation can be a bit different on where the final setting will be. For example, on our stove with a draft which reads from zero to 4, we run at a bit below 1 (.75) for our best burns. We can usually set it down to that point within 10-15 minutes after a reload of the firebox.

No need to find temperature on the glass as that won't help a lot.

Manual says small hot fires. That is sort of generic. The big number one key is the fuel. You state 20% but how did you get that reading? What kind of wood is it, when was it cut, when was it split and how was it handled after being split. Hopefully it has been a year since the wood has been split and stacked out in the sun and wind. Burning before that time almost always guarantees poor burning and creosote problems. This is why we recommend everyone be 2-3 years ahead on their wood supply as that will guarantee you have good fuel. You won't burn poor fuel in your car so why would you do it in a stove. Same with a furnace. Try burning poor fuel there and you won't get much heat. Good fuel = good operating stove and happy warm people in houses.
 
Backwoods Savage said:
...

If you burn with draft full open, almost all of the heat goes right up the chimney. The rule of thumb we use is once the fire gets started with good flame we will dial down to about 50% draft. .....

The big number one key is the fuel. You state 20% but how did you get that reading? What kind of wood is it, ....

I guess I don't get that draft full open causes almost all the heat to go up the chimney (unless I am mixing up my terminology....I close the bypass damper so smoke/heat doesn't go straight up but around a baffle....what the installer said to leave wide open is the air intake). Isn't the hotter the fire, the more the fan will kick out hotter air? I understand a greater amount of heat also escapes up the chimney too, but the heat off the fan should be more too. I think I am missing something here.

Wood I actually got off craigslist because the wood I harvested off the property this fall is not ready. We moved in recently so I am just getting going. The wood is mixture, there is some oak in there, and some that is yellow on the inside, and lots I don't know. I determine the % by splitting the splits and using a meter with two metal prongs along the fresh split in a few places to see what it is. If it is over 20% I am sticking it out with my own wood to dry another ear. 18=20% goes in another pile to add to fires, and then a decent part is 17 % all the way down to 11%. That is in a pile to start fires with.

Tonight I did that and the fire measured with an infrared laster detector was 600-620 in the red coals, and a bit less off to the sides. So I *think* getting to this temperature is a good indicator the stover works, my chimney is high enough (15 feet minimum for Lopi and mine is 16 feet, so it is close). Pointing at the grill the air comes out reads 220, the little three-ish inch mantle (cement) on the underside registers 120. The wood floor in front of the fireplace about 80. Yet, 12 feet away air is less than 70, floor is 65, etc.

I'll keep playing with it and also try dampening down the intake...but it seems odd to make it less hot to get more heat. Less air in (less hot I presume) to make it burn longer makes sense, but not to get more heat out of it.. I am confused!!
 
bspooky said:
Backwoods Savage said:
...If you burn with draft full open, almost all of the heat goes right up the chimney. The rule of thumb we use is once the fire gets started with good flame we will dial down to about 50% draft. .....The big number one key is the fuel. You state 20% but how did you get that reading? What kind of wood is it, ....

I guess I don't get that draft full open causes almost all the heat to go up the chimney (unless I am mixing up my terminology....I close the bypass damper so smoke/heat doesn't go straight up but around a baffle....what the installer said to leave wide open is the air intake). Isn't the hotter the fire, the more the fan will kick out hotter air? I understand a greater amount of heat also escapes up the chimney too, but the heat off the fan should be more too. I think I am missing something here.

Wood I actually got off craigslist because the wood I harvested off the property this fall is not ready. We moved in recently so I am just getting going. The wood is mixture, there is some oak in there, and some that is yellow on the inside, and lots I don't know. I determine the % by splitting the splits and using a meter with two metal prongs along the fresh split in a few places to see what it is. If it is over 20% I am sticking it out with my own wood to dry another ear. 18=20% goes in another pile to add to fires, and then a decent part is 17 % all the way down to 11%. That is in a pile to start fires with.

Tonight I did that and the fire measured with an infrared laster detector was 600-620 in the red coals, and a bit less off to the sides. So I *think* getting to this temperature is a good indicator the stover works, my chimney is high enough (15 feet minimum for Lopi and mine is 16 feet, so it is close). Pointing at the grill the air comes out reads 220, the little three-ish inch mantle (cement) on the underside registers 120. The wood floor in front of the fireplace about 80. Yet, 12 feet away air is less than 70, floor is 65, etc.

I'll keep playing with it and also try dampening down the intake...but it seems odd to make it less hot to get more heat. Less air in (less hot I presume) to make it burn longer makes sense, but not to get more heat out of it.. I am confused!!


Just for an example, I'll use our stove to show what happens with full draft. Many folks who buy this stove say it heats up very, very slowly. When questioned we usually find that they start a fire and leave the draft full open for 30-45 minutes and the wood usually burns up with the stove top temperature just reaching about 250 degrees which is the point that we used to use for engaging the cat when using the ceramic cats. When we got the stove we too left the draft open for quite some time but as I was thinking about this I realized that the heat was not staying in the stove but most going up the chimney. With this in mind, once the fire got a bit established, I would turn the draft down to 50% and the stove would heat up about twice as fast as before. If the flue temperature got over 400 then we turn the draft down further. This heats up the stove much faster and then we can engage the catalyst so that we get nice heat sooner. At that point we turn the draft down to 25% or less. The stove top temperature then goes up to 500-600 or higher quite fast.

If, however, the stovetop temperature goes too high, we simply open the draft further and the stove cools. Question? Why does it cool? It is getting more air; where is that air going? Right. It is going up the chimney rather than staying in the stove to heat the stove which heats your room.

I hope this all makes sense. Here's one other thought. If one is grilling outdoors or even has an outdoor fire for roasting marshmellows or hot dogs, do you want lots of flame or do you want less flame? The cooking happens best with the lesser flame.
 
Backwoods Savage said:
Just for an example, I'll use our stove to show what happens with full draft. Many folks who buy this stove say it heats up very, very slowly. When questioned we usually find that they start a fire and leave the draft full open for 30-45 minutes and the wood usually burns up with the stove top temperature just reaching about 250 degrees which is the point that we used to use for engaging the cat when using the ceramic cats. When we got the stove we too left the draft open for quite some time but as I was thinking about this I realized that the heat was not staying in the stove but most going up the chimney. With this in mind, once the fire got a bit established, I would turn the draft down to 50% and the stove would heat up about twice as fast as before. If the flue temperature got over 400 then we turn the draft down further. This heats up the stove much faster and then we can engage the catalyst so that we get nice heat sooner. At that point we turn the draft down to 25% or less. The stove top temperature then goes up to 500-600 or higher quite fast.

If, however, the stovetop temperature goes too high, we simply open the draft further and the stove cools. Question? Why does it cool? It is getting more air; where is that air going? Right. It is going up the chimney rather than staying in the stove to heat the stove which heats your room.

I hope this all makes sense. Here's one other thought. If one is grilling outdoors or even has an outdoor fire for roasting marshmellows or hot dogs, do you want lots of flame or do you want less flame? The cooking happens best with the lesser flame.

Thanks Dennis. I believe you all when you say it heats up more/faster with the draft intake turned down, I was (am still?) having a hard time figuring it out, and maybe the difference is what you say above...heating the stove so it heats the room. I keep thinking a fire with more air to burn fuel will get hotter, which may be true, but it is the entire stove and air in the stove we want hotter, not just the fire itself. So by having less air moving in and through the stove, it gets hotter. I think that is what you are saying. ;-)

It does seem to take my first load of wood to get it going hot (350 or so with an infrared thermometer pointed in various spots) inside 45 minutes, then second load (actually just throwing more wood in on the wood that is already burning) seems to start kicking out heat and it reaches 450-500. I'll keep experimenting to see if I can get these higher, because it takes 3 hours or so before the room went from 68 to 72, and maybe that is all I can expect, but I was hoping for me.

Appreciate all the input you have been giving!!
 
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