New demand for very old farm tractors specifically because they're low tech

[webfish]

https://boingboing.net/2020/01/06/new-demand-for-very-old-farm-t.html

Original article

http://www.startribune.com/for-tech...r-old-tractors-now-a-hot-commodity/566737082/

 

[Sawset]

Partly because of farmers losing their right to repair their own equipment:

California Farm Bureau sells out farmers, hands John Deere a monopoly over tractor repair | Boing Boing

Farmers are the vanguard of the Right to Repair movement; accustomed as they are to fixing their own equipment (you can’t wait for a repair tech when the tractor doesn’t work — as…

boingboing.net

Small but meaningful progress towards a federal Right to Repair rule | Boing Boing

The Right to Repair movement has introduced dozens of state-level laws that would force companies to support independent repairs by making manuals, parts and diagnostic codes available, and by endi…

boingboing.net

Search Results for “"right to repair"” – Boing Boing

Brain Candy for Happy Mutants!

boingboing.net

 

[peakbagger]

Not many farms near me but there are folks buying up pre DEF/particulate trap dump trucks. Same story. There were also firms that were basically putting new running gear into old tractor trailer bodies so they could keep the title and not have the more modern complicated emissions.

 

[Bad LP]

Not many farms near me but there are folks buying up pre DEF/particulate trap dump trucks. Same story. There were also firms that were basically putting new running gear into old tractor trailer bodies so they could keep the title and not have the more modern complicated emissions.

I have friends in trucking. Old tech engines in dumps are highly prized and more so in asphalt trucking as the new engines shut themselves off when idling. Another friend drives a low bed or a dump trailer everyday in a brand new Mack. Nothing but issues with it and the rest of the fleet and then they have Caterpillar on speed dial those engines have so many issues.
I purposely bought a used preDEF John Deere for a reason. I'm still stuck with computer controls but I can live with that.

 

[peakbagger]

The Unimog folks like me are limited to 25 year old Mercedes stock, no computers. There were a few rare newer ones that came in legally with computer emissions and they are/were reportedly problematical. The bummer is port injection is a real nice way of bumping horsepower and torque but in order to justify the costly addition of the equipment tighter emissions go along for the ride. More than a few folks have been caught reprograming the systems to defeat the emissions and boost the HP. The guys on the Diesel Brothers cable show got tagged for that at some point.

Farmers are not totally blameless for this situation, they are a major emissions source and EPA has deemed they need to be controlled but reportedly many farmers were defeating the DEF systems and particulate traps to save fuel , DEF and particulate filters. Unlike cars there are no good ways to assure that offroad equipment gets routinely tested. On road vehicles can be tested as a condition of annual inspection or just randomly at truck safety checkpoints.

One of the big engine firms, Cummins? tried to work around DEF and ended up almost going bankrupt as the engines barely ran and could barely meet emissions.

 

[salecker]

Vintage Works...
I have no iron that has DEF,nor will i.
When the time comes where someone tells me my iron can't come on the jobsite because it's to old,then i will find a new way to make money.

 

[Jazzberry]

I been researching motorhomes and they have the same problems. I guess Cat had so many problems with their motors they quit making everything but off road motors which don't have to meet the smog bs.

 

[jatoxico]

Boy I can identify in my own way. Often its the useless gadgets in cars that fail. Its a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Bad LP]

I been researching motorhomes and they have the same problems. I guess Cat had so many problems with their motors they quit making everything but off road motors which don't have to meet the smog bs.

Please reread my post. Cat has problems in their equipment. Everything new has DEF.

 

[Larry in OK]

Discussions like this remind me to appreciate my '52 Allis Chalmers CA and my '68 Kaiser/Jeep M715.

Although you'd have to fight me for my '10 Kioti.

 

[Jazzberry]

Please reread my post. Cat has problems in their equipment. Everything new has DEF.

OK I reread your post. Please reread mine lol

 

[ABMax24]

Maybe I'm backwards but I like new equipment. I like the fact that I can walk out to my diesel pickup in -30 without being plugged in and between the intake heater, glow plugs and common-rail injection it just fires up. Same thing when I show up to work, the equipment fires up, and best of all no awful unburnt diesel fumes. No ether, no tenting in equipment with herman nelsons. The engine noise is a big plus too, it doesn't sound like a rod is about to exit the block at any time. Not to mention the drastically shortened warm up time with the EGR coolers, my girlfriend has a new diesel Colorado pickup and its blowing hot air from the heater after driving a couple blocks from home. Old pickups like Dodge 12 valve cummins just don't seem to warm up in the winter.

 

[Don.S]

Lots of the small farms around here are doing it with old equipment but the big ones just take the payments and when the warranty is up they sign for a new set of payments.
The company i work for has old stuff and new stuff and they all break down. When you need it running yesterday you call the dealership to come fix it anyways so its not a big difference. Now trying to find drivers and operators is a different story and i dont blame them. Why would you want to run something that doesn't start well in the cold and loud and not comfortable.
Last week the hydraulic controls died on the case maxxum 150 i plow snow with so i had to go take out the case 580 backhoe. Had to jump start it and use ether then since it has no ac and i was covered in snow from starting it the windows would not defrost and my back hurt after plowing.
No thank you.

 

[SpaceBus]

Partly because of farmers losing their right to repair their own equipment:

California Farm Bureau sells out farmers, hands John Deere a monopoly over tractor repair | Boing Boing

Farmers are the vanguard of the Right to Repair movement; accustomed as they are to fixing their own equipment (you can’t wait for a repair tech when the tractor doesn’t work — as…

boingboing.net

Small but meaningful progress towards a federal Right to Repair rule | Boing Boing

The Right to Repair movement has introduced dozens of state-level laws that would force companies to support independent repairs by making manuals, parts and diagnostic codes available, and by endi…

boingboing.net

Search Results for “"right to repair"” – Boing Boing

Brain Candy for Happy Mutants!

boingboing.net

You mean John Deere owners are running into issues. My tractor is a 2018 Kioti and I don't have these issues.

 

[SpaceBus]

The Unimog folks like me are limited to 25 year old Mercedes stock, no computers. There were a few rare newer ones that came in legally with computer emissions and they are/were reportedly problematical. The bummer is port injection is a real nice way of bumping horsepower and torque but in order to justify the costly addition of the equipment tighter emissions go along for the ride. More than a few folks have been caught reprograming the systems to defeat the emissions and boost the HP. The guys on the Diesel Brothers cable show got tagged for that at some point.

Farmers are not totally blameless for this situation, they are a major emissions source and EPA has deemed they need to be controlled but reportedly many farmers were defeating the DEF systems and particulate traps to save fuel , DEF and particulate filters. Unlike cars there are no good ways to assure that offroad equipment gets routinely tested. On road vehicles can be tested as a condition of annual inspection or just randomly at truck safety checkpoints.

One of the big engine firms, Cummins? tried to work around DEF and ended up almost going bankrupt as the engines barely ran and could barely meet emissions.

Cat stopped making engines for the US market, so I've been told. Diesel mechanics hate the new modern diesel engines, but they generally see the worst and only get problems. It's not like well performing engines are showing up for service. My 06 Ram is one of the last trucks to not get emissions equipment, but it is computer controlled. My step father was driving a much newer 6.7 Cummins Ram to haul his 5th wheel for several years without issue. I think once folks figure out they need to buy the computer diagnostic equipment with the new truck/tractor then we will be seeing less folks balk.

Clean air is expensive and we all have to do our part, even if that means learning how to work with diagnostic equipment. In general it is not that hard. The horror stories of dealers spending weeks and thousands of dollars chasing their tails are just bad dealers. I have had several bad dealer experiences without brining in a diesel. This is all blown out of proportion. I spent two years using a 70-ish HP mid sized Ford tractor from the 80's and much prefer my modern Kioti. If an engine or hydraulic issue comes up I can hook in a computer to the CANBUS system and figure out exactly which component is failing. No guessing, no oscilloscope, and no multimeter.

 

[SpaceBus]

Maybe I'm backwards but I like new equipment. I like the fact that I can walk out to my diesel pickup in -30 without being plugged in and between the intake heater, glow plugs and common-rail injection it just fires up. Same thing when I show up to work, the equipment fires up, and best of all no awful unburnt diesel fumes. No ether, no tenting in equipment with herman nelsons. The engine noise is a big plus too, it doesn't sound like a rod is about to exit the block at any time. Not to mention the drastically shortened warm up time with the EGR coolers, my girlfriend has a new diesel Colorado pickup and its blowing hot air from the heater after driving a couple blocks from home. Old pickups like Dodge 12 valve cummins just don't seem to warm up in the winter.

Even my 24v 5.9 3500 is quite slow to warm up.

 

[Sawset]

You mean John Deere owners are running into issues. My tractor is a 2018 Kioti and I don't have these issues.

Like running your computer, and needing a service tech to come out to diagnose a faulty mouse or keyboard. And your computer is locked out until you do, so you can't just stock extra keyboards and plug them in. It creates one giant paper weight, at the expense of dealer service, cost and time.

 

[SpaceBus]

Like running your computer, and needing a service tech to come out to diagnose a faulty mouse or keyboard. And your computer is locked out until you do, so you can't just stock extra keyboards and plug them in. It creates one giant paper weight, at the expense of dealer service, cost and time.

Again, just JD locks the computers. My kioti isn't locked. Do you know what it means to lock the computers? This is like having my deceased grandparents explain rap and hip hop music. JD prevents folks from modifying their computer software while at the same time they can remote diagnose tractors from anywhere. There is nothing preventing JD owners from diagnosing their own machines and repairing on their own, however JD maintains protection from modification of their intellectual property (the computer software). On top of all this, most tractor owners have the dealer fix the machine anyway, even without computer controls. I've seen plenty of dead old tractors holding down fields without computers.

Nothing is stopping anyone from getting a diagnostic computer tool and maintaining the equipment. This sounds like a bunch of old men who want their carburetors back, you guys can keep them.

 

[Sawset]

Again, just JD locks the computers. My kioti isn't locked. Do you know what it means to lock the computers? This is like having my deceased grandparents explain rap and hip hop music. JD prevents folks from modifying their computer software while at the same time they can remote diagnose tractors from anywhere. There is nothing preventing JD owners from diagnosing their own machines and repairing on their own, however JD maintains protection from modification of their intellectual property (the computer software). On top of all this, most tractor owners have the dealer fix the machine anyway, even without computer controls. I've seen plenty of dead old tractors holding down fields without computers.

Nothing is stopping anyone from getting a diagnostic computer tool and maintaining the equipment. This sounds like a bunch of old men who want their carburetors back, you guys can keep them.

Seems your a little more versed than me on this, maybe you can mansplain this a little so I can understand it better:
I don't own a Deere, just going by what I hear - -
John Deere’s tractor firmware prevents the owners from making an unauthorized repairs. Whenever maintenance is needed, an authorized agent needs to swing by and connect to the tractor with diagnostic software. They okay the repair, and the tractor then works. Without that, it’s a very big paperweight. John Deere charges several hundred dollars for service calls, plus $150 per hour for the technician. When techs aren’t available, they have to wait. The alternative many are starting to turn to is pirating the diagnostic software themselves.

 

[salecker]

Seems your a little more versed than me on this, maybe you can mansplain this a little so I can understand it better:
I don't own a Deere, just going by what I hear - -
John Deere’s tractor firmware prevents the owners from making an unauthorized repairs. Whenever maintenance is needed, an authorized agent needs to swing by and connect to the tractor with diagnostic software. They okay the repair, and the tractor then works. Without that, it’s a very big paperweight. John Deere charges several hundred dollars for service calls, plus $150 per hour for the technician. When techs aren’t available, they have to wait. The alternative many are starting to turn to is pirating the diagnostic software themselves.

Seems like a great reason to drive past the Deere dealership when shopping.

 

[Jazzberry]

I don't know if they have them figured out yet with the newer ones but diesels had massive problems when they first tried to smog them for several years. I do really miss my old 01 Ram Cummins though. I don't care how long it takes to warm up.

 

[SpaceBus]

Any new tech brings ups and downs and growing pains. I'm pretty sure the JD monitoring service is optional, as I am fairly certain it is illegal to remove the option of maintaining the equipment at the owner level. However, I see many folks financing tractors. If JD is the financing arm they own the tractor so they probably found it in the tractor's best interest to lock the owner out of the maintenance schedule. I suspect the JD service monitoring thing is really meant for large scale tractor operations, not a property owner.

 

[Sawset]

Another interesting article. Trends going on are affecting how we live and work, creeping in without us being fully aware.

Sorry, Right to Repair Advocates: You may be right, but John Deere is on the Winning Side of History — Janzen Schroeder Ag Law

My response to the Motherboard Right to Repair article: Why American Farmers are Hacking Their Tractors with Ukrainian Firmware.

www.aglaw.us

"Tesla, as Elon Musk has proclaimed, is more a software device than a hardware device. A Tesla is a "computer on wheels."

My crystal ball shows that John Deere is moving in that direction too. While Right to Repair advocates have a point today, history is on John Deere's side. Some day farmers will not care as much about buying a new John Deere model as they will about the release of the next John Deere operating system."

 

[Bad LP]

You mean John Deere owners are running into issues. My tractor is a 2018 Kioti and I don't have these issues.

Yet.
When these new engines and machines go down it’s not like the old days of fuel, air and electric.

 

[Bad LP]

Cat stopped making engines for the US market, so I've been told. Diesel mechanics hate the new modern diesel engines, but they generally see the worst and only get problems. It's not like well performing engines are showing up for service. My 06 Ram is one of the last trucks to not get emissions equipment, but it is computer controlled. My step father was driving a much newer 6.7 Cummins Ram to haul his 5th wheel for several years without issue. I think once folks figure out they need to buy the computer diagnostic equipment with the new truck/tractor then we will be seeing less folks balk.

Clean air is expensive and we all have to do our part, even if that means learning how to work with diagnostic equipment. In general it is not that hard. The horror stories of dealers spending weeks and thousands of dollars chasing their tails are just bad dealers. I have had several bad dealer experiences without brining in a diesel. This is all blown out of proportion. I spent two years using a 70-ish HP mid sized Ford tractor from the 80's and much prefer my modern Kioti. If an engine or hydraulic issue comes up I can hook in a computer to the CANBUS system and figure out exactly which component is failing. No guessing, no oscilloscope, and no multimeter.

So you have the factory software to work on it?