New Hearth,New Stove,New Ideas

[EMB5530]

So I guess I should first say hello. I am a Kansan whom is ready for a little better heat around the house and I have a few ideas on how I am going to go about it.

Firstly, my ideas on how to build my hearth are based on the idea that "radiant heat is king in the land of the cold" this is based on the fact that when I was a kid my dad and I(mainly my dad but I did as much as a 6 year old had in him!) built a hearth out of limestone that was equal to about 4 1/2 yards of rock. It was this area of rock that radiated heat throughout the house and kept it warm(even when a fire had long been out).
Now, I have lived in a cold --- double wide rental house, that was covered in tile floors and was fine w/ it and am now in a ranch style w/ a partial basement that is darn easy to keep warm compared to that ice house of a double wide. The house we are in is about 1700 sq ft up stairs w/ about a 400 sq ft partial. It could use a little more insulation in the attic which I plan on doing after I install a chimney, but other than that it is fairly well sealed (also needs some doors and storm doors but a mans gotta eat!! so a little at a time)

My plan is in a little off center of the house to build a hearth that is to be above the crawl space so in order to support all the rock that I plan to put in I am going to have to pour two, 1 cu. yd piers/supports with another 1 cu. yd concrete pad on top. My idea was to surround the piers that support the concrete pad w/ foam so as not to lose the heat into the ground and then between the piers and the pad put a layer of sand(yet still have them doweled in w/ rebar) to keep from putting as much heat in the crawl space(a bit of heat is good but a lot not so much as I like to keep the basement cooler for storage)

After this fun endeavor(because about 1 cu. yd of dirt will have to go out of the crawl space and that much concrete will have to come in) I plan to build the part of the hearth you can see out of cut limestone to the tune of about 3.5 yards.

On top of that I am looking to set a Jotul F50 TL Rangeley (I've also thought about a PE T6 but I think its a little big and I may have already fallen for the Rangeley).
I am wondering, and this is where all the expertise here will really help, when I install the flue do I want to install a damper also?
The reason I ask is: normally I would not think that it would be needed in a single story house b/c I will probably have about 15' of pipe from the stove exhaust to the top. But, there are a bunch of things that make me think a may need it such as the constant sustained winds of over 15-20 mph and the fact that the chimney will be on the south side of the house where there are 3 different roof angles that meet within 10 feet of it. So this makes me worry that it may pull like a mad man. Also, I plan to install double wall up to the chimney for clearance reasons so I feel that may add to the excessive draft.

I know bla bla bla long post. Hopefully I didn't forget too much w/ this much here but I am trying to paint a decent picture.
Any ideas on top of what I have here are always appreciated so I'm all ears.
Thanks everyone

Eric

 

[begreen]

Welcome. I don't think you will have draft problems with 15 ft of chimney. The double-wall connector will mostly keep the flue gases hotter. That may help it draft well sooner and longer, but I don't think it will make it draw a lot stronger. If the winds become an issue you may need to install a cap designed to cope with high wind. But I would try it with a regular cap first.

Why such an overkill hearth? The stove just requires ember protection. Maybe consider a limestone tile instead?

 

[mstoelton]

I'm thinking you really don't need all of that concrete and limestone. Especially the concrete. I'm not sure what you are going for, but the plan seams a little excessive. I would be afraid that the huge heat sink you would have would never get warm.

 

[mstoelton]

I put a new hearth stone into my fireplace to act as a heat sink. It is soapstone and weighs ~400 lbs. I thought that was a little overkill. It does heat up nicely after a few hours of the insert cooking it.

 

[EMB5530]

The reason for such a hearth is: Yes, it takes a stove full before it gets warm but after that its like a switch has been turned on and the heat comes from the rock long after the fire is out as I am gone for about 12-14 hours a day and have found that with this setup (at my dads)there is no problem keepin the heat.
And I love to work w/ stone.
I've hauled in tons upon tons as a hobby to build rock walls on the property and line a pond I've recently dredged out(not the whole pond...yet just the spill way some of the dam and a spot in the front for swimming).But back to the matter at hand.. Do you believe this is too much for this stove to heat up.
The stove that my parents have is about a 2.5 cu ft fire box but it is a catalyst type all cast iron not sure the make but has worked well for 20 + years setup like this.

 

[begreen]

This particular stove has a bottom heat shield. It may not heat up the stone the way your folks stove does.

 

[Jags]

My 3.0 cuft stove won't hardly warm my hearth pad up (and only in the front), let alone a large mass that is connected to earth.

 

[EMB5530]

So do you feel that this stove may be a no go for this type of installation. If so would you know of something better?
I plan to insulate around the concrete to earth to keep from loosing heat to the ground. I usually recommend putting 1" foam on the outside of any concrete that is in a home b/c it makes one heck of a diff in thermal loss.

 

[Jags]

If so would you know of something better?

Maybe look for a stove with a higher R value hearth pad requirement. Or even reconsider - if you are looking for mass, rock the walls.

 

[begreen]

Most modern stoves are shying away from hot bottoms because it requires a better insulated (more expensive) hearth. Bottom heat shielding and ash pans that act as shields are common these days. I would just go with a thinner piece of stone and not worry about it. The F50 is a serious heater and should keep you plenty warm. If you want more stone get a Hearthstone Mansfield or a Woodstock Progress hybrid.

 

[EMB5530]

I'm sorry I see some of the confusion now rereading my original post. The cu. yds of stone include the walls the bottom will be about 5x7 the walls 5' tall and one at 7' long the other will be about 4' I need to go into paint and try to draw a crude pic of what I am doing so as to map it out better but there will be about 1 yd under and 2.5 yds around. Sorry about not being clear.

 

[EMB5530]

Here are some down and dirty drawings they may not be the clearest so ask away. Also this is just the floor as I did not draw the view from front of rock walls as I think you can get the idea from this and just imagining the walls sitting atop this footing.

 

[EMB5530]

I don't know if this helps as the drawings did not scan well sorry.

 

[Jags]

I think I have a handle on what you are trying to accomplish with the hearth pad, but be aware, most stove MFG's are going the other direction. They are designing for limited heat to the floor for the reduction in R value requirements for the hearth. You may very well be ahead of the game by keeping the hearth pad internal to the insulated envelope of the home.

 

[EMB5530]

I think I have a handle on what you are trying to accomplish with the hearth pad, but be aware, most stove MFG's are going the other direction. They are designing for limited heat to the floor for the reduction in R value requirements for the hearth. You may very well be ahead of the game by keeping the hearth pad internal to the insulated envelope of the home.

Also, I thought I had read it somewhere so I went back and looked at the doc. for the stove and it shows a removable heat shield.
Or, is this just a generic install for jotul.
Here is the link:http://jotul.com/us/products/stoves/_attachment/9938?_download=true&_ts=13cf3f6175b
Thanks again.

 

[Jags]

1.4 Bottom Heat Shield Installation
The bottom heat shield must be installed unless the stove
hearth is composed of poured concrete on earth or unless an
Outside Air Kit is installed.
1.Unfold only the rear panel of the bottom heat shield and
place it under the stove as shown in fig. 3.
2.Unfold the side panels.
3.Use the four M6 nuts from the Miscellaneous Hardware
Kit to attach the heat shield to the stove bottom as
shown in fig. 4.

This isn't generic - it is specific to the F50.

 

[EMB5530]

1.4 Bottom Heat Shield Installation
The bottom heat shield must be installed unless the stove
hearth is composed of poured concrete on earth or unless an
Outside Air Kit is installed.
1.Unfold only the rear panel of the bottom heat shield and
place it under the stove as shown in fig. 3.
2.Unfold the side panels.
3.Use the four M6 nuts from the Miscellaneous Hardware
Kit to attach the heat shield to the stove bottom as
shown in fig. 4.

This isn't generic - it is specific to the F50.

So the pad should grab some good heat off the stove?
Do you guys see anything I might need to reconsider as far as stove or hearth or is what I'm considering somewhat on the path of reasonable?
Also it has been said that a damper is not necessary correct? How do the caps made for wind help overcome strong draft and how would the price and effectiveness of one compare to a damper? I'm just worried about having to add one later and worse than that runaway.
I know I sound like a kid why, why, why, what then, how, how, but I just want to get my ducks in a row. Its always easier to solve the problem when it hasn't become one yet.

 

[Jags]

I am not sure that I am on board with the hearth pad part but that is more opinion than a problem. Dampers aren't generally recommended with EPA stoves but sometimes are needed. You can always add one later. I am in a very windy environment. I don't have a need for one.
Relax, you are asking the right questions. This is easy stuff if you have open ears.

 

[xman23]

Thermal mass stoves are very popular in Europe. The ones I've seen have all the masonry mass in the room. The mass is part of the stove. There is a lot of heated surface area so the heat from them is much less intense than a metal stove. I assume the down side of these stoves is a cold stove needs to run for a long time before heating the house. It seems like the mass your describing could dissipate the heat to a unheated area under the house.

 

[Jags]

Yeah. You have the theory in place. Trying to turn a stove into a mass heater has its challenges.

 

[begreen]

Maybe the OP should consider going all the way with a masonry heater?

 

[EMB5530]

Maybe the OP should consider going all the way with a masonry heater?

Thus far what I have read since the post from xman about thermal mass heaters is a bit farther than I want to go but is along the same lines.
I guess you could say .I am just trying the heated mass to a less degree. Bwa ha ha yea pretty lame!
Like I mentioned earlier the setup I grew up w/ was good. But it was in a different house so I just like to get input from others that have more experience than I do so I can get this right the first time. The major diff's I can see from my proposed setup to my parents is:
1.I have a partial basement w/ a crawlspace./They have an earth contact.
2.My hearth will be insulated from the earth(and the concrete pad that the rock will sit on will be somewhat insulated from the piers by sand)./My dad had his directly against concrete that was not insulated from earth.
3.Ours will be in a more central location of the house./Theirs was in the SE corner of the house.
4.Ours is non-cat./theirs Cat

As far as the operation of my parents stove. They cooked me and my sister out of the darn house! But that is the way my mother liked it. Even when it was not going for a day the house never got cold. I always remember closing the doors to our bedrooms and opening windows in the winter.
Granted they lived on the edge of town and it was not nearly as windy there. I guess I am just taking what info I have and trying to compare the how's and why's and see if anyone here might think I am grossly over/under estimating the ability of this stove to the proposed install.
Thank you to all whom have added to the saneness of this thread as I have an overstock on crazy and have only been trying to liquidate.

 

[begreen]

Most of us leave shielding intact. You will be testing off label. Let us know how it works out.

 

[EMB5530]

Most of us leave shielding intact. You will be testing off label. Let us know how it works out.

But it only says it is to be installed if it is not on fireproof structure on earth. Let me go look again though as I have been wrong before.
Yea, I went to the manual and it states:
1.4 Bottom Heat Shield Installation
The bottom heat shield must be installed unless the stove
hearth is composed of poured concrete on earth or unless an
Outside Air Kit is installed.

 

[begreen]

Your proposed setup sounds safe and should be trouble free. Still sounds like overkill to me and I'm not sure the heat loss won't offset the gain. I would sooner do a full masonry stove for all that work.