New stove advice, I did my research!

[Xtrl9]

Some of you may have seen my other threads, but basically I had my ~30' basement chimney deemed deathtrap and since I had an old smoke dragon down there anyway I was weighing the options of putting an insert in on the main living floor, from doing some reading on here from bholler and a few other threads, I'm 98% convinced I want a heavyduty flex liner. Previously I had mistakenly thought my basement flue was 7x11" but that was due to me not taking a tape measure to it. its 6"x6" and is cracked at least the bottom 3 sections. The cost to breakout and repair the 30' chimney and get a new wood stove is so much higher I am also 98% convinced I could put an insert into the large fireplace on the main floor. So there was one fellow who in a previous thread that was saying an insert is just not going to be as efficient as a free standing stove, I'm interested in hearing more on that, but I got two quotes and looked at several brands; which I will talk about below in Quote A and Quote B for the main floor flue that is 13"x17" at the top and possibly tapers down to 8"x13" at the bottom. I did have one question about new burn technology stoves, why is burning cardboard a bad idea?

Quote A:
20' stainless steel liner and a Regency CI2600(w/ blower) for the low low price of 6304 installed. This is my local CSIA chimney service and when they did the inspection the person seemed very knowledgeable and leveled with me pretty well on that doing an insert was going to cost less than fixing the basement. This quote "never expires" I think he knows I had no secondary heat and my heat pump alone can't keep me warm when its only getting up to the teens in the heat of the day, so he was doing some gouging. I'm pretty sure he was talking about using a rigid liner that I also was not liking the sound of. However he did say something about the water getting into my house and I told him I wanted him to get me whatever paint on sealant he was suggesting and the fiberglass backing, or if they can't sell it to me I'll likely have them "install" that. I paid $99 bucks for them to inspect everything that is "refundable" if I have them do some work. 2-4 weeks for installation

Quote B:
called around town and found a place that is a licensed dealer for Jotul, Lopi, Hearthstone and Pacific Energy.
Did my reading on the Jotul C550 rockford, Lopi Large flush hybrid fyre, Hearthstone Clydesdale and the person on the phone was telling me about a PE insert with 8 hr burn times for 2000 sq.ft which I guess was the super? What was funny is how the sales person was telling me "how expensive that other quote is and they didn't see why it was so much unless the CI2600 was VERRY VEEERY expensive"
They quoted me (ballpark) $2500 for liner (Homesaver flexible liner) +whatever insert/ free standing stove I go with. The sales person was telling me all the inserts that would work and we didn't really talk about putting a stove into the fireplace. So the PE choice was slightly less than the others but the Jotul, Lopi and Hearthstone were all within 100 bucks. All the wood I have seasoning outside is 22" and this is the main reason I'm leaning toward the Clydesdale since it can handle 22"-24" logs. They are coming out friday to take measurements and get a quote in writing. So here's the over the phone formula for Quote B. Homesaver Liner/insert install ($2500) + Clydesdale ($3500) = $6000* one time only super sale ACT NOW PRICE (also pretty sure that's before tax) !


I'm probably not going to do anything now, because I don't have the funds is the bottom line. That plus in 2-4 weeks I hope winter will be over and my nice new wood stove will be ready to burn all Summer long...wait...
So bring on your thoughts, comments and suggestions, I'm going to clean up my living room and I'll upload some photos of the set up with a measured opening later tonight.

 

[woodhog73]

In regards to the efficiency or heating capability of free standing vs insert, while I'm sure a free standing will outperform an insert, I've been very happy with an insert.

I have a quadrafire 3100i insert. It sticks out on the hearth roughly 7 inches or so and is not a flush mount. As such there is a fair amount of heat radiating from that exposed area. However I have a blower and I do use it. But I don't need to use it to heat my area. It blows in the direction of the back of the insert to help the warm air trapped in the back escape out the front top of the stove.

A free standing stove by design is completely exposed so the heated air will not get trapped anywhere , so I'm pretty sure it outperforms the insert.

In my case I'm heating just my living room and kitchen call it roughly 1100 to 1200 sq feet. My insert heats that area with ease. Even if I leave the blower off it gets the rooms very warm but it seems to take longer for the trapped air behind the stove to make or radiate it's way to the room without the blower.

I'm new to inserts so hopefully someone with more experience can help.

If I had a choice I probably would have done the free standing stove, but I already had a beautiful brick hearth so this was just easier.

 

[Xtrl9]

Fireplace dimensions are 34.75" wide by 29" tall and 16.75" deep at the top, it tapers in from ~26" at the bottom

Any idea how much hearth I would need to have with a freestanding stove?

 

[jatoxico]

So there was one fellow who in a previous thread that was saying an insert is just not going to be as efficient as a free standing stove, I'm interested in hearing more on that,

It would be hard to argue that a free standing stove, putting out heat from 4-5 sides isn't going to heat more freely than an insert encased in brick. Any heat generated from a free stander will make it into the room whereas the inserts heat from the sides and back is often "trapped". That heat will go into the masonry and since you have an interior install it's not all bad. Still inserts can do quite well. Looking at your picture I would choose an insert that extends (projects) out onto the hearth. As the owner of a flush faced unit I can tell you it puts out little heat w/o running the fans.

Plan on putting in a block-off plate. Your installers may balk, they often do but you can fit one now minus the actual hole for the stack and have it ready to pop in on the day of the install.

 

[Xtrl9]

It would be hard to argue that a free standing stove, putting out heat from 4-5 sides isn't going to heat more freely than an insert encased in brick. Any heat generated from a free stander will make it into the room whereas the inserts heat from the sides and back is often "trapped". That heat will go into the masonry and since you have an interior install it's not all bad. Still inserts can do quite well. Looking at your picture I would choose an insert that extends (projects) out onto the hearth. As the owner of a flush faced unit I can tell you it puts out little heat w/o running the fans.

Plan on putting in a block-off plate. Your installers may balk, they often do but you can fit one now minus the actual hole for the stack and have it ready to pop in on the day of the install.

I read the article about a block off plate and was under the impression that was only for installs where the chimney was on an external wall of the house. Is that not accurate? This giant rock monster is right in the middle of the house on all 3 floors.

 

[Xtrl9]

Also, my place is right around 2000 sq. ft; which includes part of the basement that's finished I believe, So if I'm cutting the basement out of the picture I could get a stove for say 1500 sq ft? Then I still have the problem that I'd have to cut down all my firewood. Looking at free standing stoves that accept logs 22" long they are for 3000 sq ft and I'd just be running it on low and end up clogging my new liner.

 

[jatoxico]

I read the article about a block off plate and was under the impression that was only for installs where the chimney was on an external wall of the house. Is that not accurate?

Recommended for all installs. Will ensure no heat losses up the chimney to the atmosphere which is particularly important for inserts, nor any cold drafts coming down between the steel liner and the existing structure. Also has an added safety benefit of keeping any gases coming into the house in the event of a failure.

 

[woodhog73]

I think if you go with an insert that sticks out you will be surprised. Still get the blower if it's optional but if you go with a flush mount sounds like you will for sure need the blower. Like I said earlier mine sticks out and throws a lot of heat.

For example my thermostat is in the hallway a good 20 feet from the stove insert. It was -15 degrees a few days ago. I had no problem seeing 74 on the thermostat that far away. No blower needed. If I had to have a blower going all day i may not like it much.

What I've noticed with burning wood is the heat cycles. As your fire burns down and the btu output drops you feel the cool down. Then you add more wood and get more btu output etc. the heat for me has varied based on the type of wood I'm burning , moisture content of that wood, even the time of day if I have the sun shining etc

I see you have very tall ceilings. I'm not sure but that may suck up your heat output since the warm air will rise. Woodstoves and inserts are nothing more than space heaters. That doesn't mean they can't heat the entire house or most of the house, but it will depend on airflow in the house, how tight the house is, insulation, windows, etc If it were me I would go with the biggest stove I could fit in there because I would be afraid you would loose a lot to the height of the ceiling.

Oh also you mentioned that your splits are 20 to 22 inches ? I've also got some too long to fit in my stove, I just cut them. I enjoy processing fire wood so for me it would be fine. But everyone is different

Perhaps someone else with more experience can offer insight on how the tall 2 story ceiling will effect heat distribution.

 

[Xtrl9]

My bedroom is at the top of the stairs in the photo, so I wouldn't mind some heat actually making it into my room! before using the stove in the basement I wasn't getting much heat upstairs at all.

 

[Clydeburner]

The Clydesdale has kept my house plenty toasty through this last blast of -20° and my heat has been off since Nov, I'm happy....
I'm around 2000sqft give or take. It does heat with the blowers off or on low, but much better on medium.
I maintain about 70° throughout the house and load once in the morning, when I or my wife get home fromw work and then around 10pm for the night, always have a matchless reload.
I agree with an insulated block off and even filling the fireplace behind the stove with Roxul, the inserts will heat that space quite a bit instead of putting it out to the room. Your stone hearth may work well as hearth heater even if you insulate the fireplace and I feel this also helps the burn times. I have gotten over 16 hrs with enough coals to start a new fire right up, stove top was still around 125° with the blower still on.
The Clydesdale being cast and soapstone lined heats smooth and gently and stores the heat for long after the fire dies down.
I can't speak for any others, but compared to my old hearth mount setup, the house maintains a steadier temp and I'm burning way less wood.
BTW I payed $3499 for mine with a $300 tax credit and the dealer wanted $1000 for the liner with around $600 install. I did it myself instead... find some friends and get some beer (for when your done and enjoying your new fire ha ha) and you will have it done in no time, there are many members and post on here that will assist.
Good luck

 

[Clydeburner]

What I've noticed with burning wood is the heat cycles. As your fire burns down and the btu output drops you feel the cool down.

I do not get this with the Clydesdale very stable insert, no big spikes in output weather there is a blazing glory of secondaries or if it's down to coals always warm....

 

[jetsam]

I do not get this with the Clydesdale very stable insert, no big spikes in output weather there is a blazing glory of secondaries or if it's down to coals always warm....

Blaze Kings hold a fairly steady temperature until they're almost out of fuel, because the air is controlled by a thermostat. It's my first year burning one (a Princess insert), and it's far exceeded my expectations.

I believe it will do even better next year after I pull it out and correct the 'professional' install, and feed it drier wood.

 

[Clydeburner]

Blaze Kings hold a fairly steady temperature until they're almost out of fuel, because the air is controlled by a thermostat. It's my first year burning one (a Princess insert), and it's far exceeded my expectations.

I believe it will do even better next year after I pull it out and correct the 'professional' install, and feed it drier wood.

We chatted in the past, I am a bit envious of your stove ans wish you long warm Burns with it.
What have been your burn times to maintain what temps? Is the heat output enough when the tstat is set to a low range to maximize the wood or have had to turn it up and thus had shorter burn times?

 

[Xtrl9]

Blaze Kings hold a fairly steady temperature until they're almost out of fuel, because the air is controlled by a thermostat. It's my first year burning one (a Princess insert), and it's far exceeded my expectations.

I believe it will do even better next year after I pull it out and correct the 'professional' install, and feed it drier wood.

My first choice was a new BK before I did my reading, closest BK dealer to me is about 2.5-3 hours away.

The Clydesdale has kept my house plenty toasty through this last blast of -20° and my heat has been off since Nov, I'm happy....
I'm around 2000sqft give or take. It does heat with the blowers off or on low, but much better on medium.
I maintain about 70° throughout the house and load once in the morning, when I or my wife get home fromw work and then around 10pm for the night, always have a matchless reload.
I agree with an insulated block off and even filling the fireplace behind the stove with Roxul, the inserts will heat that space quite a bit instead of putting it out to the room. Your stone hearth may work well as hearth heater even if you insulate the fireplace and I feel this also helps the burn times. I have gotten over 16 hrs with enough coals to start a new fire right up, stove top was still around 125° with the blower still on.
The Clydesdale being cast and soapstone lined heats smooth and gently and stores the heat for long after the fire dies down.
I can't speak for any others, but compared to my old hearth mount setup, the house maintains a steadier temp and I'm burning way less wood.
BTW I payed $3499 for mine with a $300 tax credit and the dealer wanted $1000 for the liner with around $600 install. I did it myself instead... find some friends and get some beer (for when your done and enjoying your new fire ha ha) and you will have it done in no time, there are many members and post on here that will assist.
Good luck

That's what I'm hoping for and why I made a thread instead of taking a loan out and forking over a boatload of money. I'm pretty sure now I want the Clydesdale, the soapstone interior (heat retention and slow even radiance is why I was choosing it above the Jotul and Lopi). Now I just need to find a flex liner that's worth the money, build my block off plate and get some insulation stuff. I think I read bholler was saying he liked the ceramic wool stuff over roxul? hopefully he/BG or someone else will chime in with a recommended material. I know for certain not all liners are created equal. Your Clydesdale is 6" liner yeah?

 

[woodhog73]

I do not get this with the Clydesdale very stable insert, no big spikes in output weather there is a blazing glory of secondaries or if it's down to coals always warm....

It's strange because the insert itself is still hot even when I'm down to coals but the room temperature will start to drop some when I'm down to coals.

Don't get me wrong it doesn't drop enough to make the furnace kick on. I leave my furnace on 63 degrees and even with -15 to -20 degrees outside even with only hot coals I can maintain roughly 70 degrees inside. If I reload and get a good fire I can get 74 to 75 degrees . If it's really cold out and I'm gone for say 5 hours I'll come home to coals and the house will have dropped a couple degrees. Still warm just not as warm as with a nice fire.

I didn't do a whole bunch of research before I bought mine . I got such a good deal on it I figured I would take a chance and so far so good . That said it sounds like the Blaze King insert may be the way to go if it puts out heat like you describe.

 

[jetsam]

Burn times depend on outside temperature- in warmer weather, I was getting 12-20 hour burns. The last few days we've seen subzero temperatures and high winds, so I've burned it very hot when we're home, and medium-low when we're both at work. A super hot pine fire can keep the house nice and toasty in very cold weather, but I might only go 4-6 hours between reloads. Yesterday when we both had to go to work, I fed it a couple spits from my small pile of dry oak and the rest pine, and set it medium-low, and it lasted 10 hours with a good coal bed left over, and kept the living room above 65 on one of the coldest days of the year. I also keep the house warmer when we're at home, which takes a lot more heat. (Heating the house up from 70 to 75 takes noticeably more juice than heating it up from 65 to 70. Lots of glass in the stove room may contribute to that.)

Looking forward to much better performance next year, as I won't be spending half of my heat to heat the exterior bricks, and my wood will be better. I went outside with my IR thermometer, and I really am spending a LOT of heat to heat up those bricks.

(In direct answer to your question, yes, thermostat setting directly influences burn times. So does fan setting- if you run the fan higher, the stove cools down more, so the magic thermostat opens up the air more to keep the temperature stable, and you use more wood. But you get more heat in the house!)

 

[Clydeburner]

My first choice was a new BK before I did my reading, closest BK dealer to me is about 2.5-3 hours away.



That's what I'm hoping for and why I made a thread instead of taking a loan out and forking over a boatload of money. I'm pretty sure now I want the Clydesdale, the soapstone interior (heat retention and slow even radiance is why I was choosing it above the Jotul and Lopi). Now I just need to find a flex liner that's worth the money, build my block off plate and get some insulation stuff. I think I read bholler was saying he liked the ceramic wool stuff over roxul? hopefully he/BG or someone else will chime in with a recommended material. I know for certain not all liners are created equal. Your Clydesdale is 6" liner yeah?

Yea 6" insulate wrapped external masonary with fireplace in lower living area 24' stove to cap. The Clydesdale is a little sensitive to draft meaning it will like to draft well, at least mine does and a few others I've read. See if the dealer can test your draft before committing to it. Ideal draft according to Hearthstone is -.05 to -.08 inches water column, I was at -.20 and was able to install a damper, I run now -.08 to -.10 and seem to be good.

 

[woodhog73]

Not to change subject but Jetsam I noticed you mentioned burning pine ? I was always under the assumption it was not good to burn pine inside ?

I've seen people burn pine in outdoor boilers though. How does the pine burn inside ?

 

[jetsam]

That said it sounds like the Blaze King insert may be the way to go if it puts out heat like you describe.

I would say that BK might be your stove of choice if:

- Money isn't a primary factor in choosing the stove
- You want a stove that is very difficult to overfire
- You want a stove with a relatively low learning curve
- You want to feed it and get on with your life; predictable heat output and no fiddling
- You want the ability to burn very, very low in shoulder season

There's other stoves that offer good heat output and long burn times (although I haven't seen any cheap ones that match BK or Woodstock in terms of long burns).

If you just want a big roaring beast that puts out as much heat as possible, there's a lot of cheaper candidates.

 

[jatoxico]

It's strange because the insert itself is still hot even when I'm down to coals but the room temperature will start to drop some when I'm down to coals.

That's true of a lot of inserts I think. Mine too anyway. A freestander full of coals at 300 is a hunk of radiating metal but the inserts buried in brick don't add nearly as many usable BTU's. True on the front end of the burn too. My flush mount suffers as much as any.

Looking forward to much better performance next year, as I won't be spending half of my heat to heat the exterior bricks,

If you mean insulating the firebox and adding a block off plate I'm sure you'll be glad you did. I was measuring some very high temps on the outside brick, especially at the level of the smoke shelf. Big useless heat sink that was. Stuffed full w/ Roxul now and metal plate added which made quite a bit of difference in heat output and liner performance (cleanliness) even while cutting back on the air.

 

[Xtrl9]

Not to change subject but Jetsam I noticed you mentioned burning pine ? I was always under the assumption it was not good to burn pine inside ?

I've seen people burn pine in outdoor boilers though. How does the pine burn inside ?

seasoned pine is just fine. Do a search on here and you'll find that its BTUs are lower than hardwood, but once most of the sap dries out it doesn't make more creosote like the myth is perpetuated. Still burns hot as the devil but burns up fast, probably why jetsam is mixing in oak.

 

[Xtrl9]

Roxul has several products, what's the...cheapest/best thing I could use? I don't think I give a hoot about sound proofing my chimney.

Yea 6" insulate wrapped external masonary with fireplace in lower living area 24' stove to cap. The Clydesdale is a little sensitive to draft meaning it will like to draft well, at least mine does and a few others I've read. See if the dealer can test your draft before committing to it. Ideal draft according to Hearthstone is -.05 to -.08 inches water column, I was at -.20 and was able to install a damper, I run now -.08 to -.10 and seem to be good.

Good insider tip that I haven't heard yet! I'll be sure to bring it up with the fella on Friday.

 

[jetsam]

Not to change subject but Jetsam I noticed you mentioned burning pine ? I was always under the assumption it was not good to burn pine inside ?

I've seen people burn pine in outdoor boilers though. How does the pine burn inside ?

A question that I've heard a lot- "you can't burn pine" is a thing people seem to know in the northeast. I grew up in the midwest and never heard it there. A google search for "burn pine" on hearth.com yields 6,770 hits.

It burns very nicely. It is a softwood, so it burns hot and fast, doesn't coal very much, and leaves little ash. It seasons fast compared to hardwoods.

If you ask people why you can't burn pine, they'll often tell you that it will fill up your chimney with creosote and cause a house fire. I can't find any evidence that dry pine generates more creosote than any other wood. Certainly there's little evidence that Pine is Bad in my flue, and I've given it every opportunity to form there (uninsulated liner, wet wood, low burns).

It is not my dream firewood, since it has a relatively low BTU value and its lack of coaling is annoying, but free firewood is my favorite firewood, so there's lots and lots of pine in my future! =D

Even if I had unlimited oak, I'd keep some pine split and stacked for fast, hot burns.

 

[woodhog73]

Ok thanks I didn't know that about pine . I have all oak on my property but I have a 2nd job doing a little tree service work for a tree service, so i take logs home sometimes to cut and split. They are free so why not. I've always passed on pine sounds like I should keep them.

On the insert Blaze King sounds the way to go for the OP . I just put my Quadrafire in so I'm keeping that one I like it so far. It heats really well.

 

[Clydeburner]

to your question, yes,

That's what I had thought, thone are decent burns. Seem like the cat stoves really shine in the shoulder seasons and produce the heat when needed like every other stove by and turning it to ashes keeping the house warm