New stove buying advice - a bit wordy too :)

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Dave_C

New Member
Feb 11, 2011
4
Southeastern MA
Hi everyone - great site with a ton of information. But I do have some questions being a first time pellet stove buyer...
Here goes - I live in Southeastern MA and I'm looking to heat my semi-finished basement that I use for a workshop - mostly woodworking and other home projects. I'm tired of being cold and all the fun that comes along with warming up glue and finishes!
My home is just about 2 years old modular home with 2 x6 outside walls and has an oil fired boiler(power vented out the side) with baseboard heating up for the first and only floor with live able space.

I have been looking around the BORGS and they have some good deals especially the orange BORG on the Englander 25 about 670.00 currently - but one the problem's I'm running into is venting... I have lots of windows that aren't the required 4 feet apart - this includes 4 basement windows and 7 windows on the gable and sides of the house. I spoke with my local building inspector today and he said that the town I live in doesn't have any specific bylaws for installing a pellet stove - he will basically just go buy the manufactures recommendations from the manual. So I went online and downloaded a few different manuals and looked at their venting requirements and some manuals are much more detailed than other's like Harmon and Heatilator (ECO-Choice), where i found the Englander to be a bit more vague no diagrams and such also some information that was not mentioned in the manual which is a concern for me because the building inspector usually goes "by the book" so this could cause me some issues if they are not specifically called out in the manual. I think I could get by as long as I followed common sense or paid to have it installed - I would like to do it myself but not the end of the world if I had to have someone come in and do it.

One thing I noticed about the Harman is that using the OAK I can get away with only having to stay 18" away from the windows which would allow me to vent it through the wall almost anywhere (staying in the guidelines for corners and such) - for me this could be a big advantage this would save me from either having to move some things around in the basement like the oil tank (where it currently is takes up a good portion of the rear gable wall which I could vent through the wall if it wasn’t there - ahh hindsight...) and save me on running some extra venting up to the roof (all my windows are 5' tall and 2.5' wide with 2 combos to make them 5' x5') or paying extra to have someone do it - I think I was quoted around 500+ materials, which seems to be the normal around here.

I did go down to a local stove shop today and took a look at the Harmon, US Stove and ECO-Choice along with the Englander at the BORG - they all have their own plus's and minus's. No ash pot in the Englander a bit more manual work is needed daily (at least it seems so from the reviews I read), the P38 (around 2200) and P43 (I think around 2500) are very nice the 43 has the advantage of the auto ignite which is a nice to have for not a lot of extra money. The ECO seems like a very nice unit as well similar to the P38 but a bit cheaper (like 1600) and the US Stove they have on display for about 1000.00 - again the trade of is the venting. If I was to go with any other stove than a Harman I would more than likely have to run full pipe out the basement and up to the roof and around the soffit (the wife would prefer not to have it running up the side of the house as it viewable from the street and isn't the most eye appealing) - I could live with it to get heat at this point if I had to but I do see the point and would prefer not to have to run a pipe all the up the house, the only other place would be in the back but I run into an issue with it being the gable end where the oil tank is and I don't think I would have enough room to sneak the stove in and run the pipe up and out staying away from the compostable and windows in the back of the house - there is also a 100# propane cylinder on the back gable corner.

Really to me it's in the basement it doesn't have to look pretty it just needs to get the job done so appearance isn't an issue - function yes - would like to hook it to a thermostat and auto ignite would be nice but needed - my plan is that if it doesn't have an auto ignite I could just fill the hopper and turn it to low during the day and then when I get home to work in the shop turn it up to heat up the area.

So I guess it comes down to do I spend the money on the more expensive stove with the bells and whistles and do a simple direct vent out the sidewall - get a cheaper model without all the features but spend more to get it installed (and maybe have some issues with the building inspector if he has to guess on some of the spec's; that's a big maybe but after just building a house I have had my fun with inspectors - not that I had a bad experience but some can be a bit more easier than others). So I leave it to you all with more experience than I and am open to your opinions - I may be completely off my rocker with my ideas on the venting and such if so please say so - my skin has thickened from working in my cold basement lol.

Whew that's a lot of info to digest and I think I confused myself so please forgive me if something isn’t clear, and I will do my best to answer any questions you may have and i do have some pictures if you all would like to see them of the house and my choices for installation.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post!

Doh all that and I forgot the square footage that I'm heating... about 1000...

-Dave
 
With the utmost respect to all those in here whom I call "friends," who happen to be Pellet Stove users and lovers........

buy a stand alone wood stove ..................not a Pellet Stove.



-Soupy1957
 
soupy1957 said:
With the utmost respect to all those in here whom I call "friends," who happen to be Pellet Stove users and lovers........

buy a stand alone wood stove ..................not a Pellet Stove.



-Soupy1957

Nothing against wood burners, but there IS the venting issue.
 
Dave, I can't really speak to which stove is better. I am still new to this also. However, I recently installed
my Enviro M55 FS and with the outside air kit (OAK) the allowed window seperation is 18". Before I bought
this stove I did plenty of research and there are other stoves w/OAK that permit the 18" seperation.Sometimes
you have to read the manual yourself, not all dealers/salespeople have full knowledge of the install requirements.
 
In addition to what others have said about reading the manual, there are frequently 2 manuals from the stove manufacturer and one from the vent manufacturer.

You need to read the stove manufactures installation manual and make sure you have the one that goes with your stove (not one for an older model) and the vent manufactures installation manual. Those are the ones that count in the absence of any local or state codes.

Always install using the most restrictive of the various requirements as that will keep everyone happy with maybe the exception of you and to be frank, in this matter your desires don't count.
 
Thanks Wachusett I didn't realize Enviro offered the same 18" allowance as the Harman which gives me another option. Does anyone else know of another manufacturer to offer the same specs? I'm still looking at the different manufacturers - still a lot more reading to do :)

Was the Enviro around the same price as the Harman?

Thanks for the info Soupy but as hossthehermit mentioned it all goes back to venting.
 
No matter what stove you choose make sure your dealer answers all your questions.
Sometimes a good dealer is betterr than a great stove. :)
Also ask yourself,whats happens if pellets go to $300.00 a ton?? Should I have gotten
a Multifuel stove???Most multifuel stoves cost about the same as one or the other.But with
Multifuel you have more options for future use.

Good luck on your your stove choice

BobMac
 
If you don't want to spend alot of money get the Englander. If money is no object get a Harman PC45 multifuel. I'm not familiar with the Englander at all but they get alot of praise on here and it might be possible to mix corn in with the pellets. My pre AE Quad MT Vernon stove won't start on corn but if you start it on pellets and switch it to manual you can burn corn 24 hours a day. I just have to start it on pellets. Other stoves may or may not be similiar.
 
Harman, there really is NO equal in terms of performance and ease of maintenace. My stove requires literally about 30 seconds of attention / week and thats it, havent shut it down in over a month and the glass is still relatively clean, just dump pellets in it and let her burn.
 
Dave_C said:
Was the Enviro around the same price as the Harman?
My stove was a few hundred dollars less than the Harman XXV. If your not in a rush, the season
is almost over you may be able able to find some season ending deals. I saved an additional $500 buying in April 2010.
Happy hunting :)
 
I paid less for my Omega than a Harman P68. And it eats anything! My testing should at least prove that. Yes I am biased and prode of it! :)
 
chris288 said:
Harman, there really is NO equal in terms of performance and ease of maintenace. My stove requires literally about 30 seconds of attention / week and thats it, havent shut it down in over a month and the glass is still relatively clean, just dump pellets in it and let her burn.

Well,Dave, there ya go. I was gonna offer a bit of input, but while I was athinkin', chris gave the definitive answer, saved me a buncha typin'. He can prob'ly fill ya in on how to tend yer wife, too.
 
Thanks all for the great comments and suggestions. I wasnt able to spend as much time going over manuals as I would have liked to today but I did find a few other stoves that offered the same amount of venting distance as the Harman using an OAK - which I plan to do since it it sounds like the way to go.

I definitely can understand about getting a stove that will run different types of fuel - and while I think it's a good idea - just not sure that it fit's what I'm trying to accomplish at this time - this isn't going to be my main source of heat for the house - it's just for the basement shop - if i can get the temp in there to 60 - 65 that would be all I need. And as I do work all day and tend to spend maybe 4 or so hours a night down in the shop I'm not sure where that "break even piont is". I would like to keep the purchase of the unit under 2500.00 and as the winter is *hopefully* winding down I'm thinking by sticking it out a little longer I will be able to grab a better deal and save some cash.

I have read that I will get some heat up into the living area running the stove in the basement just not sure how much - my thinking is that if it works well enough in the basement than maybe purchase another one (something that can run different types of fuel) for the living area. The basement is pretty unique as I have no real direct access to it from inside the house so its not like I could open the basement door during the day and let the heat up and into the house. The house we built is more of a mother - in law apartment just my parents live in the other house - the two houses are connected via a mud room but have seperate entrances off the mud room. They have there own forced hot air system that has been around since the early 70's and I access my basement from their side of the house - there is a door in the basement that seperates the two basements - as we made a passthrough from their basement to ours. Their basement can be extremely humid in the summertime where our's is the opposite very dry - french drains to a sump pump pit and plastic laid under the conrete floor before it was poured made a huge differnece, their dehundifier will pretty much run constantly most of the spring and summer where mine is hardly used - I also sealed the basement during the curring process to maintain a nice and dry basement - knock on wood so far so good.

Some things I have picked up in my last few reading of the forums and other places is maintanece where I only spend a limited time during the week in shop/basement I would hate to have to spend an hour every day performing maintenace when by spending a bit more money it sounds like I can reduce that and move it to once a week for a big cleaning and 15 minutes a day - which would fit better - more time to play with tools and make some noise :)

I ekep going back and saying if I'm going to spend the money I may as well spend it on the stove and less on the vent - the venting is obviously important and high on the priority list but apples to apples I think the money is better spend on the stove as long as my venting is above the coding requirements - I'm not one who will try to make a square peg go into a round hole by using a biger hammer - I don' want to do just the minumum to get the venting installed I like to try and do things right the first time (too many times of doing it the wrong the first time - lol)

Again thanks for the great advice and keep it coming it's like a whole new world out there.

-Dave
 
hossthehermit said:
chris288 said:
Harman, there really is NO equal in terms of performance and ease of maintenace. My stove requires literally about 30 seconds of attention / week and thats it, havent shut it down in over a month and the glass is still relatively clean, just dump pellets in it and let her burn.

Well,Dave, there ya go. I was gonna offer a bit of input, but while I was athinkin', chris gave the definitive answer, saved me a buncha typin'. He can prob'ly fill ya in on how to tend yer wife, too.


Buy a Harman and you'll spend less time tendin to the stove, which will leave you more time for tendin to the wife !
 
chris288 said:
hossthehermit said:
chris288 said:
Harman, there really is NO equal in terms of performance and ease of maintenace. My stove requires literally about 30 seconds of attention / week and thats it, havent shut it down in over a month and the glass is still relatively clean, just dump pellets in it and let her burn.

Well,Dave, there ya go. I was gonna offer a bit of input, but while I was athinkin', chris gave the definitive answer, saved me a buncha typin'. He can prob'ly fill ya in on how to tend yer wife, too.


Buy a Harman and you'll spend less time tendin to the stove, which will leave you more time for tendin to the wife !

Get the Omega even less cleaning than the Harman.
 
I beg to differ


Stove: Harman XXV


Heating Area 1,700 sq. ft.

Max. Heat Output 50,000 btu.


Min. Heat Output Zero


Automatic Ignition Yes


Manual Ignition If needed


Hopper Capacity 65 lbs.


Burn time 65 hrs.


Fuel Type Any biomass pellets


Glass Air Wash Yes


Built in Blower Yes


Convection Blower Capacity 150 cfm.


Thermostat Compatible Can be added, but the onboard sensors mean it probably won't be needed.


E.P.A. Approved Yes


Emissions 2.4 gr./hr.


Efficiency 78%


Dimensions

Height 31.25 in.
Width 29 in.
Depth 26.75 in.


Weight 375 lbs.


Window Size 16 in. by 11 in.


Flue Vent Size 3 in.


Top Vent Yes, optional adapter available


Rear Vent Yes


Rear Vent Height 8.75 in.


Battery Backup Offered as an option. See Stove Sentry

Surge Protector Recommended


Colours Black, Charcoal, Forest Green, Mojave Red, Metallic Blue


Exhaust Temperature Sensor Yes


Low Draft Shutdown Yes


Construction Type Cast Iron


Automatic Shutdown and Re-ignition Yes


Warranty


Six Years


Defects in materials or workmanship


Three years


Failure of mechanical or electrical parts.


Warranty transferable to a new owner for $25 fee.

Options


Enamel colours, see above.
Steel shaped floor protector
Top flue adapter


Comments

The battery backup offered by Harman is not supported by onboard electronics. It's an inverter unit made by Surefire and will work effectively with any pellet stove. See the link above.


Maintenance

One ton of pellets burned


Empty the ash pan, scrape the burn pot, clean the heat exchanger surfaces.


Once a year


Clean and scrape the burn pot, clean the heat exchanger, clean ash from the inside of the stove, clean the combustion blower fan and internal flue. Clean fines from the fuel delivery system.


Inspect and clean the flue if necessary.


Review








Stove: Enviro Omega


Heating Area 2500 sq. ft.

Max. Heat Output 60,000btu.

Automatic Ignition Yes

Manual Ignition If Needed

Hopper Capacity 130lbs.

Burn time 76 hrs.

Fuel Type Standard or premium wood pellets: also corn and pellets made from wheat, rye, high bark pellets, paper and grass pellets.

Glass Air Wash Yes

Built in Blower Yes

Convection Blower Capacity 200 cfm.

Thermostat Compatible Yes

E.P.A. Approved Yes

Emissions Undisclosed

Efficiency 80%

Dimensions

Height 42 in.
Width 25 in.
Depth 26 in.


Weight 325lbs. without fuel


Window Size 14 in. by 10 in.


Flue Vent Size 3 in.


Top Vent No


Rear Vent Yes


Rear Vent Height 14.2 in.


Battery Backup No See Stove Sentry

Surge Protector Recommended


Colours Matte black with charcoal side panels, (side panels can be painted with high temperature paint).


Exhaust Temperature Sensor Yes


Low Draft Shutdown Yes


Construction Type Fabricated steel


Automatic Shutdown and Re-ignition Yes


Warranty


Limited Lifetime Original purchaser. Covers the body of the insert or stove against material or workmanship defects for parts repair or replacement for seven years, labour for two years. Firebox, Heat Exchanger, Burn Pot, Firebox Panels, Ceramic Glass, Pedestals, Panels, Legs, Log Sets and Door Assembly.


Limited Three Year Warranty: Burn pot liner.


Limited Two Year Warranty: Ignitor, Auger Motor, Circuit Board, Timers, Temperature Sensors, Blowers, Vacuum Switch and Wire Harness.


Limited One Year Warranty: Exterior surface finishes against defects in materials and workmanship.


Comments

It is possible to paint the side panels of the Enviro Omega with high temperature paint in a colour that you like. Don't know why it's not possible to order the stove from Enviro with the panels pre-painted.


The burn pot cleaning mechanism can cause some slight noise


Maintenance

Every Two Three Days:



Inspect burn pot and liner. Check daily, clean out air holes weekly. Clean agitator.
Check the door latch, making sure it closes securely.




Weekly:


Check the door gaskets, re-glue if necessary.
Operate the heat exchanger cleaning rod.
Empty the ash pan.
Clean the window glass as needed.



Twice a Year


Make sure that the fresh air intake is clear.
Check and clean fly ash from the stove's exhaust passageways.
Clean the back of the stove inside.



Annually:



Check and clean the exhaust flue every year or after burning two tons of pellets. Vacuum dust from the blowers.
 
You need to talk to the folks that actually operate an Omega you might get a hell of a surprise.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
You need to talk to the folks that actually operate an Omega you might get a hell of a surprise.

I'm just foolin with you... I love my stove very much, think it's the best thing since sliced bread, I did my homework and am VERY happy with the Harman. I'm sure other stove owners are extremely happy with their purchases also, others, not so much. Opinions and preferences, its whats makes the world go round,, it's all good...
 
I think Harman is overly optimistic on their cleaning routine.... no matter what stove you have it's a good idea to do a COMPLETE cleaning, including the flue, after every ton of pellets burned or sooner if you have cr*p pellets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBUfkD-GiaE

This cleaning routine certainly is as through as any I've seen and, if you listened to Harman's advice, you'd never have to do this... maybe the Harman fairy would come over and magically clean the stove while you sleep. With good pellets I can go two weeks without opening the door on my St Croix... and many other stoves can do the same or more...

I'm NOT knocking Harman stoves... I actually drank some Harman Kool-Aid before I bought my St. Croix. I wanted 'the best'.... but the service rep at my dealer give me no reason not to buy the used St. Croix they had on the floor. He told me he repairs more Harman's than St. Croix's... that was good enough for me.
 
krooser said:
I think Harman is overly optimistic on their cleaning routine.... no matter what stove you have it's a good idea to do a COMPLETE cleaning, including the flue, after every ton of pellets burned or sooner if you have cr*p pellets.

x2.....and I'm a Harman owner. Cleaner stove= better output.

I go 2-3 weeks max before a firebox cleaning. Clean venting after a ton or so. When burning lesser quality pellets, clean firebox weekly. Scrape burn pot quickly on every bag dumped into hopper.

But other than cleaning and burn pot scrapping, the Harman pretty much runs itself.
 
j-takeman said:
I paid less for my Omega than a Harman P68. And it eats anything! My testing should at least prove that. Yes I am biased and prode of it! :)

I thought most anything would burn if on fire, I saw a few houses on tv burning the other day.
 
chris288,

I am just as passionate with the stove I own. And I plug it where I can. Take a look and see hearthtools thread on his untouched stove for ten weeks with 38 plus bags burned through it. I don't do this as I feel a weekly cleaning keeps my stove at its top performance and most efficient state. But if I have to leave for a few weeks, I know all the wife needs to do is feed it, And what she feeds it also doesn't much matter!

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/13351/#147693

I too get carried away with it. There kind of like cars though a driver for every seat. And what this guy likes may not be what another likes. Keep the passion! :) But, just remember the top dog has to watch for the newcomer looking to dethrone him!
 
j-takeman said:
chris288,

I am just as passionate with the stove I own. And I plug it where I can. Take a look and see hearthtools thread on his untouched stove for ten weeks with 38 plus bags burned through it. I don't do this as I feel a weekly cleaning keeps my stove at its top performance and most efficient state. But if I have to leave for a few weeks, I know all the wife needs to do is feed it, And what she feeds it also doesn't much matter!

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/13351/#147693

I too get carried away with it. There kind of like cars though a driver for every seat. And what this guy likes may not be what another likes. Keep the passion! :) But, just remember the top dog has to watch for the newcomer looking to dethrone him!

Absolutely, I frequently travel and am away from home for 7 days at a time, I know with the XXV all the wife has to do is put pellets in it and thats all, even she is away from home 3 days / week and my dad comes over just to put pellets in and pick up his grand-dog to babysit.

It was a toss up between the brown enamel XXV and the brown enamel M55 cast, the dealer didn't know his butt from a hole in the ground and while demonstrating the M55 totally turned me off from the Enviro, i'm smart enough to know better but I still think there are less moving parts and things to go wrong with the Harman.

I got a great 14 years out of my whitfield, it only cost me an auger motor in all that time, it didn't have all the bells and whilstles that the Harman has and it required more frequent cleanings but it too was a great stove.
 
Sorry I have been busy tendin' to my wife....

Lots of great points you all bring up - I'm still out looking around and as it gets warmer up here hopefully so will price's on the stove's themselves. So far for my basement the P43 from Harman looks like a nice stove and has a lot of features.
 
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