new to site, advice for my fireplace efficiency

[jkycia]

Hello group

I have a fireplace, and am wondering what you think is
its efficiency and if there is anything I can do to improve it.

It has a glass front door that is pretty tight fitting.
I could seal little cracks between the bricks and the metal frame.
There is already something there.

Inside is metal. I put some fire bricks around the back wall and sides.
I read somewhere that this could reduce the size of the burning space which may be too big.
My impression was that this made it run better.

The inner walls of the fireplace are metal.

I have damper. Everything is fine when it is open but if I close it down, smoke comes into the
room.

Notice the brickwork has these 4 vents. These are pretty nice. once warm, because of convection,
the air flows through. The bottom is the intake and the top is the exhaust. I figure it runs across the fire area
(above it?). There is not fan on the ducts. I was thinking about putting some in.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

It looks like a Heatilator. You are doing the right thing for a fireplace with the glass doors and the Heatilator vents. Convection will improve heat output and the glass doors help. But definitely do not close the damper unless the fire and coals are completely out.

If the goal is to dramatically improve heat output and to reduce heat loss up the flue, then an insert with a liner is a good option to consider.

 

[dafattkidd]

I have a similar setup in my fireplace. Yours is nicer than mine. I used to be able to heat the room with a good fire. It was nice and fun to play around with. I installed an insert, and I heat my whole house with it. I get a ton of heat, feel a lot safer when I burn in it, and it burns for hours.

If you're looking to keep what you have small fans in front of the intake vents will help a bit, but if you're looking for efficiency an insert will blow your mind. I broke even on my insert and install cost within a year. You've come to the right place for good advice about wood burning. Good luck!

 

[dougand3]

If you're looking to keep what you have small fans in front of the intake vents will help a bit, but if you're looking for efficiency an insert will blow your mind. Good luck!

+1. A cheap trial is 2 small fans blowing into the lower vents. Then you can assess if this helps heat enough or do I put an insert in.

 

[firebroad]

Your smoke problem has me stumped. If you are getting smoke after you shut the damper, where is it coming from? Surely you are not closing your damper before the fire has gone out.

 

[jkycia]

About the damper and added info about air inlet,

I am probably not using the damper correctly. I need to read up about that again.
I though I should close down the damper as the fire calms down to keep the heat.
I was probably closing it too early. I was closing it while there were still flames but not
a large fire. When I mean closing. There are 5 notches for the lever. If Open is 5 and closed is 1.
I started with it on 5 and then once the fire burning and I had draw in the chimney. I set it to 4.
then 3, I was getting smoke so I set it back to 5.

When the fire is out, and I remember to, I set it closed to 1.

By the way, the bottom of the fireplace has a flap that I can open to dump ashes down a chute.
There is a hatch in the basement to clean out the ashes. It also has a vent with a hinge that I can open to
let air from outside. That I have wide open. It send the air in and against the glass.
When pulled open the screened vent is about 12" wide and 1" tall.
Do I just leave that vent full open always? I suppose I can close it when not using it to reduce cold air

 

[Wood Duck]

It sounds to me like I'd leave the outside air intake vent open all the way and try to use the damper to control air flow. It sounds like the damper is designed to be adjustable while the outside air vent is more of an open or closed type of design, so the damper is a better choice for adjusting air (although that doesn't seem to be working too well). Consider a newer insert and liner, which is a giant step up from your existing system.

 

[firebroad]

Before I got my insert, I had a chimney top damper, this was better for adjusting. as it facilitated drawing the smoke out of the firebox. You are correct, you are shutting it down too soon, you need to get a good hot burn first, then gradually close it off. I would not set it to its smallest position until the fire has died down and you are going to bed/letting it burn out. I had a smokey fireplace even with the topside damper, and had to put a smoke guard across the top of my opening, which was a pain and didn't look aesthetically pleasing. Problems in my case were a too-large firebox, short chimney, and crappy draught.
Your set up sound great for a fireplace, though I must concede that an insert should be in your future. There are a few models that will not make your fireplace look like the boiler room of a tramp steamer.

 

[jkycia]

Hello, It has been a while. I am now seriously considering getting an insert installed.
I am thinking of getting a PE Neo2.5.
From my earlier post you can see my fireplace. The circulation system works very nicely. I put fans at the bottom and the
heat comes out the top. Even without the fan, convection works very well to circulate the air.
The ducts cross to the other side of the fire box. (so for example, room air enters the bottom right vent and comes out hot on the
top left).

Will I lose this heat exchange aspect if I get an insert? Will the masonry still get hot? The firebox is thick metal on the sides and
back, going up to the damper
I figure the circulation ducts run above this and take the heat from the top of the box. Will that part still get significant heat from the insert?
Is there any advice people can give on the installation. Is there anything I should do differently from a standard installation.

I think I would install a block-off plate but not install insulation on the back or sides of the firebox as I have seen some people do on this forum.

 

[bholler]

figure the circulation ducts run above this and take the heat from the top of the box. Will that part still get significant heat from the insert?
Is there any advice people can give on the installation. Is there anything I should do differently from a standard installation.

You will get some heat but not much through those vents with an insert, And you have a double wall box those vents circulate in the space between the 2 walls. At least that is how most i have seen work. Installing in heatforms like yours is not much different than most other fireplaces other than the fact that cutting out the damper to get the liner through is a real pain. And i would still insulate behind the insert if it is an exterior wall and plug those holes you will get more heat from the insert that way

 

[jkycia]

The insert installation person visited my house. I have been reading this site about inserts and chimney liners and had requests or suggestions that
I thought would give the best setup. He pretty much shot down everything I asked about. I am fine with that if he's right.

Can any body here can give me their feedback?

First, the details. My fireplace is on the ground floor, I have a chimney running along the
side of the house. It is brick. I think it has a clay liner. We use the fireplace with just a glass door and have not had trouble with draw. The chimney is 25 ft tall and straight. We plan on getting the PE NEO2.5.

1. I asked if we could get a rigid liner instead of a flexible. Th idea being that this should have a better draw than flexible. He said that he does not believe that is true. He said looking at my fireplace, there is only a small amount of black at the top of the opening, that this was probably due to accidentally having the flue closed when starting a fire. I said yes, he was right about that. So basically, I should have fine draw with the standard flexible liner.

2. I asked if the rigid liner would be sturdier, easier to clean? He said the flexible liner expands and contracts and so creosote comes off of it easily. So he says is is better in that respect. He said the liner will last a very long time (my lifetime). I should probably ask him what liner he plans on using, to get the thickness.

3. I asked if he would add insulation on the liner. He said no. he could but that would be overkill for my situation. he says my chimney is fine. He would only do that if it was just a
straight brick chimney with no clay liner. It would cost an extra $600 and really not necessary.

4. My fireplace now has an air vent to the outside to provide fresh air. I asked would we be using that to give air to the insert. He said no. That would be bad, since it supplied cold air and so not efficient. He said that he will close that off and we will supply air from the room.
I think the argument there is that when we are not using it, it will run cold air through the chimney and maybe leak out to the room, make the house lose heat when we are not using the
insert. He said our house it not super tight (made in '85). If it were, super air tight, maybe it would be necessary.

5. I asked whether he would install a block-off plate above the insert. He said no. he has never done that. That that would be very tricky to do effectively because it would likely leak. He said that he uses fireproof insulation that is better than Roxul. (maybe it does not produce
loose fivers). He fills the whole area above the insert with that and he seals off the top of the chimney.

He seemed to be pretty confident and competent. Are these all minor details? Am I splitting hairs?

 

[bholler]

1. I asked if we could get a rigid liner instead of a flexible. Th idea being that this should have a better draw than flexible. He said that he does not believe that is true. He said looking at my fireplace, there is only a small amount of black at the top of the opening, that this was probably due to accidentally having the flue closed when starting a fire. I said yes, he was right about that. So basically, I should have fine draw with the standard flexible liner.

Well you both are right sort of if draft was marginal A smooth wall pipe like either rigid or heavy wall might improve it enough to make the difference but with 25' in your case it should not be an issue. We don't use rigid at all anymore

 

[bholler]

2. I asked if the rigid liner would be sturdier, easier to clean? He said the flexible liner expands and contracts and so creosote comes off of it easily. So he says is is better in that respect. He said the liner will last a very long time (my lifetime). I should probably ask him what liner he plans on using, to get the thickness.

That depends on the liner he is going to use light wall although it will work fine and hold up ok it is not as durable as rigid or smoothwall.

3. I asked if he would add insulation on the liner. He said no. he could but that would be overkill for my situation. he says my chimney is fine. He would only do that if it was just a
straight brick chimney with no clay liner. It would cost an extra $600 and really not necessary.

I totally disagree it will help with performance greatly And in most cases is required by code in the US at least don't know about Canada We don't install any liners without insulation

4. My fireplace now has an air vent to the outside to provide fresh air. I asked would we be using that to give air to the insert. He said no. That would be bad, since it supplied cold air and so not efficient. He said that he will close that off and we will supply air from the room.
I think the argument there is that when we are not using it, it will run cold air through the chimney and maybe leak out to the room, make the house lose heat when we are not using the
insert. He said our house it not super tight (made in '85). If it were, super air tight, maybe it would be necessary.

That depends on your house whether or not you need a fresh air intake in our area most do not need them but lots of houses do
.

5. I asked whether he would install a block-off plate above the insert. He said no. he has never done that. That that would be very tricky to do effectively because it would likely leak. He said that he uses fireproof insulation that is better than Roxul. (maybe it does not produce
loose fivers). He fills the whole area above the insert with that and he seals off the top of the chimney.

A block off plate will help allot and does not take that long. I would insist on it and if he wont do that and insulate the liner i would find someone else.


He sounds like the average installer what he is planning to do is fine but it is the minimum acceptable install if it was my house i would be looking for better than that and that is why all the installs that we do we no more than the minimum. In some areas though it is not easy to find pros that will go above and beyond

 

[jkycia]

Thanks for the advice. I am looking for quotes from alternate installers.
The liner he and two other local installers I have contacted so far would use is made locally.
It is found here: http://www.chimflextubing.com/sst_flex.html
This is flexible and 0.005" thick 316TI tubing. The second person said he would use 5" diameter and not insulate.
I need to now check the first person, whether it was 6" or 5". In any case, the walls seem to be on the thin side to me.

 

[bholler]

That liner seems to be inline with most of the light wall stuff out there although it is one of the thinner ones (.005 versus .006) and it should hold up ok. We only use heavy wall liners for wood stoves but they cost quite a bit more. What was their reasoning for running 5"?

 

[jkycia]

I don't know why the second person said 5". He was just talking on the phone, he hadn't seen the chimney. The first installer who visited
did not mention a diameter, but I was assuming he was going to go with 6" since there was no discussion of any technical difficulties at the time.
There is a damper that and a sharp bend at the top of my box, I was thinking of cutting a chunk out of that to make the
required bend less severe. I figure the tube would have to be ovalized there if I do not cut part of it out.

I just called a another installer that is far away. They are willing to come in to do the job. I ad visited them to see the neo2.5 in their showroom.
In any case, they also use the 0.005 thick chimflex. They also said the stuff is great, has never given anyone any trouble.
They said they would not insulate because we have clay liner already but if we want it, they can add a 0.5" wrap for an additional $300.
I need to check the dimensions of my chimney (I just tried from looking below but I can't tell how narrow it gets
above the firebox). It looks black and very smooth inside (with nuggets of creosote dusting the side walls).

 

[bholler]

n any case, they also use the 0.005 thick chimflex. They also said the stuff is great, has never given anyone any trouble.
They said they would not insulate because we have clay liner already but if we want it, they can add a 0.5" wrap for an additional $300.
I need to check the dimensions of my chimney (I just tried from looking below but I can't tell how narrow it gets
above the firebox). It looks black and very smooth inside (with nuggets of creosote dusting the side walls).

Like i said the thin stuff will work ok but i dont think it will hold up as long as the heavier stuff . For $300 i would absolutely get it insulated it gives you an added safety factor and absolutely benefits performance. I also would cut out the damper oavalizing through it can cause problems. What ever you do make sure the installer completely cleans the old flue first it is pretty dangerous to leave the old creosote in there.

 

[jkycia]

Yes, the installers made it clear the chimney had to be cleaned first. I can install the block off plate myself if they don't want to do it. I guess I will have to
stick with the thinner metal but get them to provide insulation. Thanks for the advice.

 

[jkycia]

An update:

I had the Neo2.5 installed. I am not 100% happy with the install, but it turns out to be ok. They went with an uninsulated 5.5" liner. They said the
6" would not fit because I have a 8x12 flue..or something like that.. There was some grout at the bottom that they were catching on.

They chipped up my brick hearth in loading the insert. The fan makes a rattling noise. They noticed and tightened some nut by hand. I said, shouldn't you use a wrench, it will come loose? They ignored me..It still rattles at some speeds. Yeah, not great.

But the fireplace is running. The insert is putting out a great amounts of heat. I will stick with this, and next time I will have to spend more time,
figure out how to get the best liner.

 

[jkycia]

Update: I am happy with the NEO2.5. I informed the installer that the motor rattle came back. They have scheduled a visit
to repair or replace the fan motor. That is great. The unit produces a lot of heat, being able to heat my whole house (2000 sqft house) so far with
-5C outside and 21C inside. I have the furnace off but its fan on to circulate the heat through the house.
I have no problems with the 5.5" liner (with draw) but I have learned, dry wood is really important. Thanks everyone on this forum.
I have benefitted from many of the posts here. A great tip was washing the window with wet newspaper and ashes.
If I get it hot enough it cleans itself, and again dry wood does not smoke up the window.

An update:

I had the Neo2.5 installed. I am not 100% happy with the install, but it turns out to be ok. They went with an uninsulated 5.5" liner. They said the
6" would not fit because I have a 8x12 flue..or something like that.. There was some grout at the bottom that they were catching on.

They chipped up my brick hearth in loading the insert. The fan makes a rattling noise. They noticed and tightened some nut by hand. I said, shouldn't you use a wrench, it will come loose? They ignored me..It still rattles at some speeds. Yeah, not great.

But the fireplace is running. The insert is putting out a great amounts of heat. I will stick with this, and next time I will have to spend more time,
figure out how to get the best liner.