Newbe with storage question

[Rlankford2]

This site has been a lot of help. I should be ordering my eko 40 around the end of jan 12 but have a question on storage. I was thinking of using a 500 gal vertical propane tank in the basement and putting the boiler in the shed about 80' from the house.
But was wondering due to room on the basement and wanting to have 1000 gal of storage. would it be possible to put 500 gal in the shed and a 500 gal in the basement for a 1000 gal total. Or would I be better off with 1000 gal in the shed.

The other question I have is should i zone the water to air exchanger. And the water heater. And what would be the best way to do this.

Thanks for all the help.
Robert

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I would keep the tanks as close to the boiler as possible. Be sure to use a mixer or loading unit so inlet temps to the boiler are kept high enough. Vertical is the way to go & if possible wrap/insulate the 2 tanks together so its as 1 unit, Randy

 

[ewdudley]

Running separate tanks could work well. The piping and controls would take some figuring, but shouldn't be problem once you figure out how it should work.

A big advantage of having the one tank in the house would be having it close to the DHW demand in the summer. With a tank in the house you could draw heat for DHW without pumping all the way from the boiler room. Ideally you'd have a DHW coil in the top of the house tank, then you don't need an indirect tank or sidearm with pump and controls.

 

[Duetech]

The general concept and or science for the most efficient storage utilization is a single location for the tank or tanks. Splitting the storage location/s would be an added plumbing and controls issue probably best left to those with a very flexible working experience with boilers and storage. Also a search of the forum will probably reveal a very limited number (if any) of posts concerning split storage locations for storage because those with a "very flexible working experience with boilers and storage" choose to keep things simple. Those with two tanks usually plumb them so they can draw equally from each tank at the same time which actually similates a single storage tank. Simply put... just trying to explain why it might not be a good endeavour is a nightmare and to attempt it would be a real Friday the 13th "freddy" experience.
Perhaps you could put the boiler and 1000 gallons of storage in the shed? Zoning would best be explained by someone other than me. Welcome to the forum!

 

[ewdudley]

Simply put... just trying to explain why it might not be a good endeavour is a nightmare and to attempt it would be a real Friday the 13th "freddy" experience.

Seems straightforward enough to me.

Boiler heats boiler room storage in the conventional manner.

House storage draws from boiler room storage when temperature at top of boiler room tank is greater than bottom of house tank and bottom of house tank is below setpoint.

At least that's how mine is set up, one pump, a differential aquastat, and a conventional aquastat. Works perfectly and can in no way be described as nightmarishly complicated.

Just need to size the lines going from the boiler room to the house tank large enough to carry on the order of half the btu output rate of the boiler.

--ewd

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Perhaps you could put the boiler and 1000 gallons of storage in the shed? Welcome to the forum!

That is what I would do. No doubt EW could get just about anything to work, I do think the simplist for most of us is to keep the system in one place, Randy

 

[timberr]

The biggest disadvantage with storage outside the house is you are going to loose BTU's to the outside environment (no matter how well insulated your storage is). when storage is inside those lost BTU's are heating your living space so they aren't truly lost.

 

[Duetech]

There you go Freeheat11. Ewdudly has the set up you are looking for and it sounds simple enough. Btu loss from either tank would be leaked in to an area that would use it so it would be a bonus arrangement. I had an EKO40 in an uninsulated-unheated building and really wished it had been otherwise but the boiler was up to the task anyway. It should work well for you. One bit of advice or a request actually is for this forum though (not a mandate but members still like it) is pictures. Pictures can or will garner responses and questions will probably make your install much smoother.

Thanks for chiming in ew. I might have some questions for you down the road!

 

[EffectaBoilerUser (USA)]

Greetings fro Northern Michigan,

As a previous EKO40 boiler user and a current Effecta Lambda boiler user I can tell you that having the storage next to the boiler is very important for several reasons:

1.) It minimizes heat loss from the piping between the boiler and storage.
2.) It reduces the overall cost of installation by minimizing the piping, control system and other misc. components.
3.) If you can have the "boiler room" in the house or in a building attached to the house you can use the heat that is lost from the boiler, chimney and storage (I have my effecta 35kw boiler and 1,000 gallons of storage in a 'boiler room" that is attached to the rear of the garage and allows me to keep my garage at 55-60 all winter without the use of heating devices in the garage) to help heat the house.
4.) When used with a laddomat loading valve (and assuming the piping is properly installed to the storage tanks) the boiler water will be allowed to enter the staorge tanks and "thermosiphon" automatically in the event of a power outage or mechanical pump failure.

You can also have another storage tank in a remote location if the layout requires this but you definatelly want to have at least one storage tank next to the boiler.

With regards to the size of storage, I would definately use the following guidelines:

25kw boiler requires minimum 500 gallons

35/40kw boiler requires minimum 1,000 gallons

60kw boiler requires minimum 1,500 (preferably 2,000 gallons of storage).

If the storage is too small you can expect to have problems with the boiler overheating before the full load of wood can be burned in it, the useful length of heating time using storage only will not be sufficienct to cover the house heatload for a long period (nomally I suggest designing a boiler system so that a fire needs to be made once per 24 hour period in nomral 20-30 degree weather).

If the storage is larger than the above recommendations it will cause an initial "financial problem" for the extra tank storage cost but will be greatly appreciated in the colder months and in the spring and fall when it will allow for several days of heat coverage between making fires.

In the summer time I am able to supply heat for my domestic hot water needs by making a fire once every 5-6 days.

Brian

 

[woodsmaster]

I have a 60 kw boiler with 1000 gallon storage and one full load is perfect for bringing the storage from 140 to 180-190 F
More storage would be nice but so far I've been firing one time a day. I could go 36 hr on the heating but wouldn't be able to supply enough dhw for are large demand with the sidearm set up I have currently.

 

[EffectaBoilerUser (USA)]

The reason I recommended the storage sizes on my last post are based on the following calculations:

35kw = 122,000 BTU, 40kw = 136,000 BTU, 60 kw =205,000 BTU

Increasing the temperature of 1,000 gallons of water 40F (140 to 180F) = 1,000 x 40 x 8.33 = 333,200 BTU
Increasing the temperature of 1,000 gallons of water 50F (140 to 190F) = 1,000 x 50 x 8.33 = 416,500 BTU

Thus, my Effecta Lambda 35kw boiler produces 549,000 BTU in a single, 5 hour burn cycle (122,000 btu x 5 hours x .90 efficient)

My Effecta Lambda holds approx. 95-100 lbs of 15-20% MC wood (100 x 5,500 BTU/lb = 550,000).

My house 3,500-4,000 sq. ft house and garage has a heat loss of 27,000 BTU/HR when the outside temp. is 30F (27,000 BTU/hr x 5 hours = 135,000 BTU).

Thus, 549,000 - 135,000 = 414,000 BTU output in one (1) 5 hour burn which raises the temp. in my 1,000 gallons of storage from 140-185/190 in one (1) 5 hour burn when the outside temp. is 30F.

I am a little surprised that the Biomass 60 boiler raisies the same 1,000 gallons the same amount of degres's F that my smaller, Effecta Lambda 35 does. Maybe the 60 kw Biomass is heating a structure(s) with a much higher heat loss?

Thanks,

Brian

 

[woodsmaster]

Brian, I think your calculations are good for the storage but it does somewhat depend on your heat load and what you can afford.
For me 1000 gal. works pretty well. I'm allways pulling heat out at the same time the storage is charging. I time my daily fire
to happen when we have the largest demand for DHW and we use a lot. I also have some transmission losses in pex under my
house that is not yet insulated. If I do happen to put to much wood in I can dump the extra heat in my slab easily. I've used around 3 cord of wood since sept. 3rd. I think that is pretty good considering what I heat. My elec. bill droped $75.00 / month
so that kinda tells how much hot water we use.

 

[Rlankford2]

Thanks for all the info. I think I will locate the tank or tanks in the shed with the boiler just to make it a little more easy on me for the install.

So the next question a single 1000 gal tank or two 500 gal tanks? What is the best setup? I have a good Lead in 2 500 gal tanks for $100 each I think I will go pick them up I wouldn't be out any money at scrap prices. And then vertical or stacked install would be the next question.

 

[Clarkbug]

For that price I would say that you are fine with the two 500s. If you can stack them that is great, but if not you can get by just fine with a vertical install.

 

[EffectaBoilerUser (USA)]

If you have the head room I would go with 2 vertical tanks as the stratification will be better in taller tanks.

I recently helped a person out with 2 x 500 gallon stubby/short tanks as seen in the photos.

Thanks,

Brian