Oil tank leak

[Corey]

No, CO sensors work either by a gel that changes color upon absorbing CO, a transistor whose channel conductivity changes upon CO adsoption, or a solution whose conductivity changes upon CO entering the solution.

They are *not* (necessarily) sensitive to other combustibles in the air. Don't make that mistake thinking you're covered for something (e.g. propane) when you're not.

Yes, certainly a wide range of sensors. I suspect some of those listed above may still be driven by oxidation. Possibly CO > CO2 making a weak acid and changing conductivity and or pH of a solution. Though if buying a $1000 scientific instrument sensor, then it's most likely some more exotic technology highly selective to CO. But a $10 CO detector is likely much more simple.

And I do apologize if my post conveyed the thought that a 'CO' sensor would necessarily pick up combustibles. I don't believe I said that, and certainly don't rely on it. But since CO is essentially a flammable gas, these cheap sensors do have the *possibility* to pick up a wide range of flammable gases, which is not a bad thing in a home environment. (and what most likely led to the reported CO alarm in the OP's case)

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[Ashful]

Yes, certainly a wide range of sensors. I suspect some of those listed above may still be driven by oxidation. Possibly CO > CO2 making a weak acid and changing conductivity and or pH of a solution. Though if buying a $1000 scientific instrument sensor, then it's most likely some more exotic technology highly selective to CO. But a $10 CO detector is likely much more simple.

And I do apologize if my post conveyed the thought that a 'CO' sensor would necessarily pick up combustibles. I don't believe I said that, and certainly don't rely on it. But since CO is essentially a flammable gas, these cheap sensors do have the *possibility* to pick up a wide range of flammable gases, which is not a bad thing in a home environment. (and what most likely led to the reported CO alarm in the OP's case)

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I mostly just liked the story at the end, of trying to tighten a fitting, and tearing a swatch off the bottom of the tank.

 

[fbelec]

the tanks in mass have to be put in a cement box around the tank. and now i think they have to be plastic tanks. i could be wrong on this

 

[peakbagger]

I did some searching and could not find that as a state requirement for residential. Mass does require coated fuel lines https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter148/Section38J

I did find a town regulation that requires double containment of tanks and upgrade of existing installations when being sold to new owner. https://www.town.dennis.ma.us/sites/g/files/vyhlif3016/f/pages/fuel_storage_regulations.pdf

I wonder if the concrete box idea comes from underground storage tank requirements?

 

[Ashful]

The house in which I grew up had a 1500 gallon oil tank buried in the back yard, presumably original to the 1950’s. And still in use when we sold 20 years ago. Makes me wonder if they’re still running off that now-70 year old tank, today.

I never had to pay to fill it, but I recall my parents saying it lasted over a year per fill-up.

 

[peakbagger]

The house in which I grew up had a 1500 gallon oil tank buried in the back yard, presumably original to the 1950’s. And still in use when we sold 20 years ago. Makes me wonder if they’re still running off that now-70 year old tank, today.

I never had to pay to fill it, but I recall my parents saying it lasted over a year per fill-up.

I am amazed that a bank did not stop the sale until it was removed. That has been pretty much standard in New England for 20 or 30 years. Tanks still ca be put underground but its got t be very special construction double wall with leak detection. My friend got tagged with having to remove an underground tank in PA 15 years ago. His wife fell in love with an old house with big underground tank. It was a stretch to get qualified for loan as they were sitting on a house in NH. Things were going along fine and then the bank stops the transaction as there was an underground tank and they would not write a note on place with tank due to potential liability. The sellers were losing money on the deal and would not pay for it and they needed a house so he had to put the removal on a credit card. They were lucky, no staining of the soil underneath.

 

[Ashful]

I don't remember the details of the sale, I had already moved out and my mother was selling it. It could have been a cash sale, for all I know. But it was also more than five years before the mortgage crisis, when banks started paying more attention to their loans.

I can say the tank in our house looks downright frightening, and I know for a fact it's at least 28 years old, in fact likely closer to 40 years. Our bank never even asked about it, when we secured our mortgage.

 

[hockeypuck]

I just had a service on my boiler. I asked them to check the tank. They used an ultrasound device to check the thickness. Said it was in ok shape but prepare to have it changed in the next 10 years. The tank is from 1993. The price they quoted on the spot was reasonable. We go down there every day to get food from the chest freezer. Going to wait a few years for the building craze to die down and do it. The moral of the story, ask your oil delivery/boiler repair guy to check the tank.

 

[fbelec]

I did some searching and could not find that as a state requirement for residential. Mass does require coated fuel lines https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter148/Section38J

I did find a town regulation that requires double containment of tanks and upgrade of existing installations when being sold to new owner. https://www.town.dennis.ma.us/sites/g/files/vyhlif3016/f/pages/fuel_storage_regulations.pdf

I wonder if the concrete box idea comes from underground storage tank requirements?

we have a trailer park in town and everyone who has oil has outside tanks and have to put a cement box around them or pull them

 

[fbelec]

I am amazed that a bank did not stop the sale until it was removed. That has been pretty much standard in New England for 20 or 30 years. Tanks still ca be put underground but its got t be very special construction double wall with leak detection. My friend got tagged with having to remove an underground tank in PA 15 years ago. His wife fell in love with an old house with big underground tank. It was a stretch to get qualified for loan as they were sitting on a house in NH. Things were going along fine and then the bank stops the transaction as there was an underground tank and they would not write a note on place with tank due to potential liability. The sellers were losing money on the deal and would not pay for it and they needed a house so he had to put the removal on a credit card. They were lucky, no staining of the soil underneath.

even without a sale i have a friend in burlington mass that had a underground take and the insurance company made them remove it

 

[fbelec]

back 5 years ago my aunt had a leaky oil tank and they quoted her $2800.00 to replace it. i can't imagine having two

 

[peakbagger]

That sounds steep unless they know the tank is bad and will have to remove and dispose of contaminated soil. In Mass it usually goes to paving plant where they make pavement out of it.

 

[Ashful]

I just had a service on my boiler. I asked them to check the tank. They used an ultrasound device to check the thickness. Said it was in ok shape but prepare to have it changed in the next 10 years. The tank is from 1993. The price they quoted on the spot was reasonable. We go down there every day to get food from the chest freezer. Going to wait a few years for the building craze to die down and do it. The moral of the story, ask your oil delivery/boiler repair guy to check the tank.

This is exactly how my process started, me asking a tech to check it. Although they didn't pull out the ultrasound equipment, they looked at it, knocked around it, and gave me the same "you're fine today, but you'll want a new one in the next 10 years." My response was, "well, I'll still be here, and they'll only cost more then." So, we're doing it.

I never asked for a price, figured 2 men for most of a day is going to be $1k, and tank and piping has got to be another $500 - $1k, so just guessing $1500 - $2000. What did they quote you?

back 5 years ago my aunt had a leaky oil tank and they quoted her $2800.00 to replace it. i can't imagine having two

Hoping it's not that much, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Two tanks shouldn't be that much more, only the diff in material, you're still paying two men (or back-strong women) for a day's work.

 

[fbelec]

i thought it was kind of high myself. and the basement cement floor wasn't even stained but being 7 miles from boston they had a lot of overhead i guess.

 

[peakbagger]

$1400 bucks for a 265 gallon generic version of a Roth double wall more for Roth but I cant find a quick price

Double Wall Oil Tank 265 Gal. 2-in-1 Tank with Accessories 961226 - The Home Depot

This 2-in-1 Tank offers additional peace of mind and trouble-free installation. Primary tank made of blow-bolded high-density polyethylene (HDPE). Internal tank is fluorination treated for odor and chemical

www.homedepot.com

Roth makes smaller 190 gallon tankks that take up a lot less space (tall and skinny) for someone with wood heat who needs a backup. that may be plenty of capacity.

They have to pump the tank out to something and "dispose of the fuel" Roth tanks specifically say do not refill the new tank with the old oil but my guess is the dealer filters it and blends it in with their oil.

Then the fill and discharge piping needs to be removed and the tank hauled out of the basement which can be a major project. Dependent on the dealer, they may haul it off complete but usually cut a hole in it making sure they do not set it on fire and then swamp out the sludge with oil absorbent pads. The entire mess needs to be disposed of properly. Then the new tank needs to be hauled down and set in place, the fill and vent pipes need to be reworked which usually needs some threaded pipe cut to length and maybe a new fitting. The new tanks are not gravity outlets, the fuel is pulled up from the bottom of the tank and then across the ceiling to the boiler and a "Tigerloop" is usually installed. It allows use of only one pipe otherwise a return line has to be routed back to the tank. In addition to all that, in some cases interior walls may need to be demolished or worst case the tank needs to be cut up in place. Few people figure in tank removal when they finish a basement.

BTW for the cheap folks "like me" used Roth tanks come up on Craigslist/Facebook on occasion. Unless they were in a wet basement, they are pretty well bullet proof. Most folks want them goneafter they switched to natural gas or someother heat source so the price can be good, sometimes free but usually there is some oil in them so someone buying one would need capability to pump and store the oil. It should be filtered before reusing. The Tigerloop has a spin on fine filter. Someone capable of installing a boiler would have a lot of the tools to do it and its not rocket science. Home depot will cut and thread pipes to length. They have handles on them and not that hard to move. I bought a used one that had been removed and picked it up and moved it myself. One thing to be careful is not to dent the outside galvanized tank or drag it across the floor. Getting rid of the tank is local thing, usually once they are cleaned out, they can be cut up and gotten rid of as scrap steel. The initial cut has to be done with an inert atmosphere in the tank. They usually put dry ice pellets in through one of the fill holes and let it melt than use a saw to cut in hatch that is big enough to wipe down the interior with oil absorbent pads. Its messy work, buy a tyvek suit and rubber gloves. Some folks cut them in half and turn them into smokers although be aware there could be some nasty residue in the tank as biocide is usually added to heating fuel to keep biological activity down and possibly some heavy metals in older tanks.

 

[Brian26]

Here is my invoice from 2 years ago in CT for the removal and replacement of my basement 1958 275 gallon tank with a Roth. Keep in mind I am in an extremely high cost of living area on the CT shoreline so my guess would be this would probably be way cheaper elsewhere. Mine also had a permit pulled and was inspected by my town inspector. That adds considerable cost around here as they have to spend time at the town hall pulling and paying for the permit. Then after the install they have to meet the inspector in a 3 hour window. I have gotten killed on electrical working having to pay the electrician 3 hours waiting for the inspector to show up.

It was well worth the $2875 to get that old tank out compared to what a spill would cost here near the coastline. I had a ground level door with an outside drain right next to the tank so the oil could have potentially leaked outside. With the Roth you also get a million dollar spill policy included.

 

[Ashful]

Roth makes smaller 190 gallon tankks that take up a lot less space (tall and skinny) for someone with wood heat who needs a backup. that may be plenty of capacity.

Burning 10 cords of wood is how I get down to 1000 gallons of oil per year! If I'm ever incapacitated or gone, my wife will have the oil truck in the driveway every 7-10 days with a 275 gallon tank.

Here is my invoice from 2 years ago in CT for the removal and replacement of my basement 1958 275 gallon tank with a Roth.

Thank you, that is very useful. You guys also have me wondering if I should be calling my oil co to request a Roth. Their plan was to just replace with another standard 27" wide 275 gallon steel tank, same as my old one minus the rust.

 

[peakbagger]

I think the new steel tanks have a "double bottom" to allow leak detection.

 

[fbelec]

They have to pump the tank out to something and "dispose of the fuel" Roth tanks specifically say do not refill the new tank with the old oil but my guess is the dealer filters it and blends it in with their oil.

that's what i think also.

 

[Ashful]

My oil company asked me to run mine dry, before replacement. They said they never like to put oil from an old tank into a new one, if it can be avoided.

In order to make this feasible, they're dropping off a 10 gallon temporary tank, which I can switch to, as soon as my old tank runs dry. When that happens, I call them, and they come do the swap within a few days.

 

[blades]

Lot of crud settles the bottom of the tanks- dang near like tar. I do remember dad having a lot of trouble with the furnace one year things kept plugging up , tank was in basement but fill line ran out side ( same place, The well was inside in the corner of the basement- that's another story) NG was the hot new kid on theblock and dad switched the whole shooting match to that. Had to cut the tank up to get it out , late 1950's

 

[peakbagger]

I bought a used Roth tank that looks to be 10 years old. There were a couple of small clumps in the bottom but that was about it. I think heating oil from 30 to 40 year ago was a lot dirtier. I remember that filters had to be cleaned every year sometimes more often. My local heating oil company has been advertising a cleaning additive for 25 years (Red Shield).

I on occasion had to deal with industrial #6 fuel oil tanks that had been in service for decades. The gunk coating the walls could be a foot thick. The joke with #6 is if companies didnt buy it, the oil companies would need to pay to get rid of it. Now that most states require low sulfur #6, I think its even cleaner.

One of the plants I worked had been burning turkey fat from rendering plants. The stuff was reportedly half rancid by the time they delivered it. The operators at the plant had lots of stories about how disgusting it was to clean out the strainer baskets.

 

[GrumpyDad]

My oil company asked me to run mine dry, before replacement. They said they never like to put oil from an old tank into a new one, if it can be avoided.

In order to make this feasible, they're dropping off a 10 gallon temporary tank, which I can switch to, as soon as my old tank runs dry. When that happens, I call them, and they come do the swap within a few days.

I'm not sure how much oil I use in a heating cycle. When I let my tank run out, and I have to purge the system, I run it , let it click off, reset, run it, repeat until it runs for awhile without air, then close down the bleed screw and let it rip. IN that bleed cycle time, probably 4-5 resets, I bet I get half a gallon and it probably only runs a total of 2 minutes through this cycle. I cant imagine how much oil runs through when Im heating up the place from 50 degrees > 68. The furnace will easily run for 30 minutes or more, then kick on again shortly after as the wood expels more cold air into the place. Then it stays there as by then the fireplace has taken over. Does an oil furnace continue to pump oil the entire time it is heating? At one point I here a 'click' and we hear just the fan run which I believe is the final cycle to push the last remaining warm air through the ducts into the living spaces. So if that was the case, then I dont think a 10 gal tank would hold me over very long. I would likely have to refill it multiple times in a couple of days.

 

[peakbagger]

Whenever the burner is running the oil pump is running. In a one pipe system it internally recirculates to maintain fuel pressure. If its two-pipe system, is recirculates back to the tank or the Tigerloop if one is installed. An tank that feeds overhead is normally a two-pipe system unless there is a Tigerloop. Not sure if it an overhead line can be done with single line but think it can but it would be bear to bleed. The Tigerloop does a couple of things, it primarily provides a prime reservoir right near the pump which circulate fuels through the Tigerloop and then pulls in fuel from the overhead line while separating out any air bubbles. They are usually paired with a very fine mesh fuel filter which is supposed to keep the oil nozzles from plugging. I have always been a one pipe gravity owner so installing the tigerloop will be a learning experience.

 

[Ashful]

I'm not sure how much oil I use in a heating cycle. When I let my tank run out, and I have to purge the system, I run it , let it click off, reset, run it, repeat until it runs for awhile without air, then close down the bleed screw and let it rip. IN that bleed cycle time, probably 4-5 resets, I bet I get half a gallon and it probably only runs a total of 2 minutes through this cycle. I cant imagine how much oil runs through when Im heating up the place from 50 degrees > 68. The furnace will easily run for 30 minutes or more, then kick on again shortly after as the wood expels more cold air into the place. Then it stays there as by then the fireplace has taken over. Does an oil furnace continue to pump oil the entire time it is heating? At one point I here a 'click' and we hear just the fan run which I believe is the final cycle to push the last remaining warm air through the ducts into the living spaces. So if that was the case, then I dont think a 10 gal tank would hold me over very long. I would likely have to refill it multiple times in a couple of days.

I average about 30 gallons per day in the dead of winter without the stoves, but I can easily hold usage to just 1 gallon per day for a few days in October, using the stoves if needed. The 1 gallon per day is my average usage for domestic hot water.

Heck, I even have one bathroom on a separate electric water heater, and we can all use that, if we truly run dry on oil.