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Osburn 1800i BayWood Fireplace Story

Post in 'The Inglenook' started by 67ref, Dec 3, 2008.

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  1. billkline

    billkline Member

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    Yes, I am concerned about the wood under the hearty. Fire codes such as NFPA 211, or your local building code, IRC, BOCA, CABO, or whatever, all call for there to be no wood at all anywhere beneath the hearth extension. So I would recommend taking out the wood that was under the old hearth, drilling some holes for rebar horizontally out from the existing chimney where the hearth used to be, in the floor space, putting a steel form plate across the bottom of the framed opening thru the floor, and pouring about 6 inches of concrete there. Get the rebars in it to support its weight on the chimney, not the floor.. Then build a masonry hearth. It could be lightweight masonry, hollow blocks taking most of the space, and a nice facing like you have now.

    The other glaring problem is the wood firring on the face of the fireplace. There is not supposed to be any framing wood, or wood at all except trim, in contact with the chimney. Everything looked pretty good when you tore it out the first time. I couldn't tell when you put it back if you had maintained proper clearances, but improper clearances there are a major cause of structural fires.

    I hope this is helpful. I'm all for heating with wood, SAFELY. My house burned down from a faulty installation when I was 8 yrs old. I don't want to see that happen to anyone!

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  2. 67ref

    67ref New Member

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    Brink, the power cord was routed to the left side behind the surround plate to a point where it exceeds the 10" to any combustibles,
    through the framing, plywood, rockboard and hearth stone a hole large enough to fit the plug was fabricated, the hole was then
    filled in with 3M fire barrier.

    cord below runs to an electical outlet which was feed through the wall on the left side down to the basement hooking into
    existing electical which in fact was already the old electrical from the previous job.

    best of luck with all of your 1800i
    we absolutely love our unit.
  3. 67ref

    67ref New Member

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    Mr. chimcheree,

    the handle is "67ref" not Mr. Fire Honor Society

    in reviewing of your comment it is my personal opinion that you are simply attempting to instill unnecessary fear in people.
    you may very well operate a business of Chimney installations but this job was build according to specs and permits and has been
    100% signed of on my both installation WETT certification and Ontario Building Permits.

    From your comments, including that you failed to view all photos, it's become clear to me that you did not notice
    this is an existing masonry fireplace, where an insert was added, seems to me you think somehow the wall was closed up and there is a tube in there somewhere.

    This was all put backtogether as previous build, it was a repair process on the wall.
    the white face brick in the first photo is cosmetics, there is rough in masonry chamber behind that wall,
    within that cavity of the chimney is now a 6" approved liner taking the flames and heat out to the top,
    any fire would never reach anything within the wall, unless where your from, fire burns through concrete and bricks.

    I'm not sure what to tell you, your missing something here!
    this is all signed off on from the permits office!

    your comments are not appreciated at all, particular the "STOP NOW" and that I will be burning down the house.
    thank you for those pleasent comments, nothing better then insulting others with fear.
  4. 67ref

    67ref New Member

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    Mr. chimcheree,
    Secondly, you have no idea what you are talking about .... point blank!

    This is an Osburn 1800i insert which is approved to be installed into an existing masonry fireplace!
    it does not require by code to have 18" legs on it you uneducated indivudual ! (and I'm being nice here)
    this unit is not available with 18" legs nor is is an option, it's a fricken insert man!


    You are adrressing the wrong person about the install, Brinks photos and install is yet to follow.


    your next comment: "Yes, I am concerned about the wood under the hearty. Fire codes such as NFPA 211, or your local building code, IRC, BOCA, CABO, or whatever, all call for there to be no wood at all anywhere beneath the hearth extension."

    first of all, this has all been carefully drawn out and sumitted to Building Permits office and it was signed of on,
    even got some comments on job well done and one slight correction.

    this job was done in Ontario Canada and perhaps Fire codes on your planet are different but this was all done
    as a repair/replace process, codes were followed and signed off on.

    There is an entire existing masonry chimney which is exterior going into the house, wood framing is part of a home,
    it's how it comes into the home and rotten beams were simply replaced, insulation added and drywall, paint finished the applications.

    I've become so angry with your uneducated comments !
    pardon my frustrations !

    to clarify" the existing masonry was not tampered with, it's in tact and was not openend during demolition,
    the heart extention was build "as per code with a permit and signed off on as approved" using 2X4 wooden framing,
    it is covered with Durock board sealed with cement at the seams and has huge heart stones cemented on top of that,
    there is no place for anything fire related to end up anywhere near the wood framing.

    the existing masonry and hearth were a raised stepup into the fireplace cavity,
    clearly one can see in the photos that it had to be build up to meet it's masonry ledge and trust me,
    I inquired about whether such is allowed and I was told it was by officials whom granted me this permit to perform this work.

    as a matter of a fact, the building inspector actually recommened that I added a folded piece of metal ductwork sheet
    where the insert meets the hearth extention, so below the 2" thick stone, is a metal barrier to prevent any hot ambers
    to fall down in between to anything wood related, now also learn that all seams were filled with concrete thus leaving
    no way in down below as it's incased by non-combustible materials.

    lastly !
    your comments: "maintained proper clearances, but improper clearances there are a major cause of structural fires."
    and "The other glaring problem is the wood firring on the face of the fireplace. There is not supposed to be any framing wood ..."



    There is a 1" clearance on all the wood to the existing masonry brick and block,
    and I'll repeat "signed off on by building permits office"

    perhaps you do not clearly understand when they say so many inches to all sides to non-combustible materials!
    this applications was build with a couple extra inches to any combustibles and where anything was near it was protected
    with metal and has been approved pre and post installation.


    Your comments upset me a great deal, particular where you come on here and yell to "STOP IT" and as rude as you can be
    start advertising for others to not build as I have.

    the word is "IGNORANT"
    but because you've successfully managed to instill fear .... now I'm going to have to go back to the Building Permits Office
    and get them to review my files and give me yet again another "APPROVED" stamp to make all what you've just created in my mind,
    go away for my own sake.

    Thank you for your concerns and thousand thanks for all your uneducated comments!
    Next time take the time to actually look at pictures before commenting, that would help a great deal.

    It's an approved insert man !
    give me a break with the required 18" legs on it ... really ? TOO MUCH YOU ARE !!!

    It's an approved firebox build by a company that list this unit at an INSERT,
    which means the unit slides into an existing masonry fireplace where the unit rests on the bottom of the old fireplace.

    18" legs on it ... give me a break!

    did you really think I bought a stove and removed the legs on it to try and make it look like an insert ?

    I'm sorry but you have frusterated me to no end and it's my opinion you should do some homework before commenting like that !
  5. backpack09

    backpack09 Minister of Fire

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    554
    Loc:
    Rochester, Mass
    I cannot find the owners manual for the insert model. But from the freestanding version of the 1800:

    "Floor Protection Requirements (for combustible floors)
    If the stove is to be installed on top of a combustible floor it must be guarded by a non-combustible
    material extending beneath the heater and to the front and sides as indicated in Figure 1.1, or to the nearest
    permitted combustible material. Floor protection must extend beneath, and 2” (51 mm) to the sides of a
    horizontal connector if one has been used.
    Please note that floor protection is required under the pedestal models for spark and ash shielding, but not
    for limiting floor temperatures from the radiant heat of the stove. The stove was designed and safety tested
    so that without any protection the floor would not overheat even under over firing conditions. Please refer
    to local codes for suitable floor protection materials."

    It looks like you meet that under the stove.
  6. backpack09

    backpack09 Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
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    Ahh found the insert:

    "2.1.1 Hearth Requirements
    If the non-combustible hearth is flush with the floor, then the hearth must be 16” (406mm) in front of
    the fan housing (see Figure 2.1.2). If the non-combustible hearth is a minimum of 4” (102mm) above
    the floor, then the hearth can be 6” (152mm) out from the fan housing with a 10” (254mm) floor
    protection (sparks) extended beyond the hearth (see Figure 2.1.1). The non-combustible hearth must be
    a minimum of 8” (203mm) on each side of the unit (Canada & US)."

    still looks like you meet those requirements.

    Manual at: http://www.osburn-mfg.com/forcedownload.aspx?strFile=images/poeles/manuel_en/4851132922008263.pdf
  7. 67ref

    67ref New Member

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    Ontario Canada
    thank you!
    yes the manual for the 1800i which is the insert was reviewed along with the application by the inspector,
    this unit DOES NOT require 18" legs on it and as far as the hearth extention outwards, it was not enough
    on the stone which lays ontop of the 2X4 wooden contructed hearth but was approved to have 12X12 ceramic tiles down below.

    why would someone say something like that ?

    it's all within clearance to anything combustible.
    I don't have it in front of me right now but it was something like 14" from the top of the unit
    and I think 10" to each side and 18" outward on the front from the unit body and with this
    bayview model it means the door/glass not the actual blower casing.

    I don't get it ... was all drawn up and work was permitted then inspected and signed off on.

    for someone that run a chimney business to get on me about needing 18" legs on this unit
    and that 2x4 wooden construction is not allowed is behond me ...

    gives me a headache actually.
  8. crazy_dan

    crazy_dan New Member

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    Missouri
    looks good, but probably feels better than it looks :)
  9. 67ref

    67ref New Member

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    Messages:
    115
    Loc:
    Ontario Canada
    Thank you!

    yes feels real good, still need to finish the facing and the mantle but yes,
    have been heating with it now since Dec 12th, works real good.

    Furnace stopped running although we give it a go every now and then
    to keep the basement from turning into an ice cube. mostly have the
    dampers turned off upstairs and wide open to the basement.

    do find that every three days time for cool down and cleanout.
    but this is to be expected I suppose ...

    thank you again.
  10. billkline

    billkline Member

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    Loc:
    Upstate SC
    67ref,
    I'm sorry about mis-addressing you previously. That was my first time back on this forum in several years, and I hadn't figured out the name and status system. I am aware that you installed a Osburn 1800 Insert in your fireplace. The problem I'm concerned with is that the installation instructions for that insert expect non-combustable, code-book compliant masonry hearth to extend out 20 inches in front of the facebrick on that fireplace, and there can be no wood underneath that hearth. I thought Canada's codes were tighter than USA's codes, but I may be mistaken. Building a wood frame and putting Durock and concrete stones, however pretty, doesn't suffice for a stove with legs, much less for one sitting directly on the hearth. This stove sits 6 or so inches out past the fireplace face, on that stone sitting on wood 4 ± inches away. You do not have a noncombustible hearth. My concern is that you will pyrolize the wood in contact with that hot stone, and one day it will spontaneously combust. Is your WETT Technician or your Building Official going to help you when that happens?

    And the woodwork in place of facebrick really concerns me. That was another part of that standard fireplace you deleted, and replaced with something different, that is not non-combustible.
    To me, that's scary.

    I'm sorry I upset you, if all it does is make you mad. That does no one any good. But if I can get you to study the code books and see what doesn't conform, and can save you that disaster in the future, then my effort has been worthwhile.
  11. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    As the OP has explained in some detail in two different threads, the actual firebox of his insert is completely contained within and supported by the original intact masonry fireplace structure. That portion of his insert extending out to the front is viewing window and blower enclosure. If the manufacturer's instructions specify only a non-combustible surface required for the hearth extension in front of the insert, then that's that. The OP has more than met that requirement. If it were an appliance which required some specified r-value for the hearth, then that would be a different story. This installation appears to me to be perfectly safe and sound, as well as quite nicely executed. If everyone setting out to do a DIY woodburning appliance installation did their homework as thoroughly as the OP has apparently done, the world would be a safer place. None of us here is the local Authority Having Jurisdiction. The OP has unfailingly engaged those professionals throughout his project, and they, who are on the scene, with the requisite knowledge and experience and credentials to say yea or nay have passed it with flying colors. I say we get off his case and stop nit-picking and second-guessing and simply congratulate him on a job exceptionally well done. Rick
  12. North of 60

    North of 60 Minister of Fire

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    HEAR, HEAR I second that Fossil. 67 has done his due dillegence and shared a wonderful effort on his part. Enjoy your new install.
    CHEERS N of 60
  13. 67ref

    67ref New Member

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    Messages:
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    Loc:
    Ontario Canada
    fossil;
    thank you so much for those words, you have no idea what this has all done to me last couple of days.
    you a lawyer by chance, sure good writting on your part.

    thank you for the many good comments, to you North of 60 as well, thank you!

    the latested verdicts is as following;

    just had a visit from our ward's representative of the Fire Prevention's Office,
    these are the guys you get to talk to when you phone the city's Fire Station whom then pass you to thier
    Fire Prevention representatives. the guy called and said he was able to come over right away, he shows up
    and although the insert was hot we carefully managed to remove the surround and view the internals.

    all the paperwork and some good pictures showing the pre contructions where brought out for review.
    Documentation for the unit aswell and reviewed carefully, he took some measurements and agreed that
    perhaps others could be concerned when seeing this wooden structure all around this wood burning appliance
    but he swore up and down, that it's to code and as a matter a fact when a stove company submits thier product
    to testing it's a 1 hour burn test to no more then 90C temperature testing to the nearest combustible.

    in this cause the 14" up and 10" to the sides, meets such requirements.
    an IR temp testing (after he threw some small spits on and stoked it with open air for a good ten minutes) revealed
    that the temp directly above the unit is only getting up to 52C. (durock and wood) and he said maybe add 10 or 20 max.
    more let say we really got it running too hot, that is still would not get anywhere above 90 and is as per the testing
    of ULC S628 CANADA. and that those are over stated numbers for testing purposes when a company submits thier
    production for testing.

    he indicated that as long as there is space between the actual masonry work, of the actual masonry fireplace, to the wooden framing,
    which he was able to see in both the pictures and as well from having a look up past the durock board at the top, that it meets the
    manufactures requires clearances to combustibles and therefor meets the ULC S628 standards to which the unit was tested
    and approved for such rating.

    I nagged him some more about that someone had put fear into me about the wooden hearth structure,
    he flipped through some pages in his book and eventually showed me some text which stated that
    a heart extention outwards is for spark prevention, insert rests within the designanted masonry fireplace,
    he looked at the unit some more and confirmed the actual firebox of the unit is within the masonry firebrick
    fireplace as required by the manufacture and local code. he noted that the hearth is to be covered with
    non-combustible material to pass code, I believe he said 1 5/8" material. he said that sometimes people
    have to double up on the durock to meet such because a thinner tile was used, he's seen it done before.

    he measured the thickness of my "approved" fireplace hearth stones, verified the reciepts for such
    and said, you have plenty of thickness, I mentioned that eventhough i didn't have any pictures of it,
    beneath the durock board screwed into the based CDX plywood there is a large piece of metal ductwork
    material covered by cement directly below where the unit meets the ledge of the stone, good idea he says;
    not required but very good prevention, I mentioned that it was a recommendation from the Building Permits
    office although by code not required. Overkill is the word we settled on.

    he reminded me to do inspections of the entire thing and keep an eye on structural movements
    which then may crack cement seams and open up possibilities for hot embers to drop into,
    although with the durock and heat shield, he stated that it's something to be concerned about
    but it just requires common sense and regular inspections and that embers don't just drop down
    past all of this non-combustible material and ignite something.

    he said it's a good point of concern but all this here meets requirements and is allowed as per Ontario building codes.

    the bottom line, it's installed as per manufactures requirments and meets local code.
    he said: WETT certification dealers and installed do not put their bread and butter on the line
    by simply selling a few thousand dollar stove and risk the fact of being sued when signing off
    on any unsafe installation that is not up to code.

    I recall the installer taking a real good look around prior to going back out to the truck
    to bring the unit it. I had asked if there were any concerns and he said no other then
    that he didn't see the 12X12 tiling on the floor as part of the extentions because the stones
    are only 21" and the blower motor enclosure stick out 10.5" I showed him the tiles
    awaiting at the side and mention those were going in directly infront of the heart
    but would not be fully fastened until we got the flooring in.

    It's all to code and safe to continue using.
  14. billkline

    billkline Member

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    67ref,

    Thank you for this detailed explanation. If the county Official Having Jurisdiction has rechecked it, and seen it up close and personal, and is satisfied, I'll say "Good Job!" Your pictures didn't show me all of this, and they scared me silly. Having your house burn down from a faulty wood stove installation when you are 8 years old might have that effect on a person. As an old, worn-out professional chimney specialist, I would have put everything back in masonry, I'd have used metal studs, there would be no wood anyplace in that entire space. But you didn't ask me do do it for you. And I wouldn't go there to do it if you asked me. You have done a lot more careful work than most do-it-yourselfers I follow up behind.

    Go enjoy your stove. It is a nice one. I've installed 3 or 4 of them, but I like my Osburn 1600 better. I've gotta go take one of those to my crew to install today.
  15. oconnor

    oconnor Minister of Fire

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    Code and manuals are fences to keep us safe - you have done your duty and made the only one responsible for the install happy that you are good to go - that person is you.

    Enjoy your stove, burn safe and warm.
  16. Rudyjr

    Rudyjr Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Central Ohio
    67Ref, Nice to see that your local officials and fire prevention folks say that you are good to go. It is very satisfying to do it yourself and know it is done right. Much better than paying others to do it for you and then find out it is not to code. Enjoy the stove, look forward to seeing the completed photos.
  17. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
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    Nice job!

    I do understand the concern by a member about the stud under the hearth against the fireplace - not that THIS installation is wrong, but it is good to mention it for the following reasons.....

    1. If the insert is removed and the fireplace used as an open fireplace again, it may not meet THAT code.
    2. Many inserts and hearth stoves do require extensive R-ratings underneath the unit, and there are definitely many where this particular situation would not meet those.

    That is just for the record in case folks look at this thread and not at their own manuals!

    Anyway, really nice job on everything. It definitely helps when a person has time and patience. I can only imagine if I was doing this as a paid job....having to get it done in a couple days - now THAT would be real work.

    As it is, I think you can give yourself a couple pats on the back for doing a better job (cleaner, etc.) than I would have!
  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Not to belabor the point, but advice should be taken within the spirit it is given. I happen to agree with Chimcheree and his advice would generally be what you would get from most experts I know.....including myself.

    Inspectors and many people simply don't know what they are talking about in many cases.

    Not trying to start a flame war here, but I mentioned a few things in the last post...and I find the manual on that unit lacking, but if I were your inspector and trying to prove my point, I would say the following.

    The manual constantly makes reference to "non-combustible" hearth. That particular term - for instance in the case of Vermont Castings stoves - means concrete with bare earth under it! The manual should have an R or K value stated......I'm amazed the testing lab let them get away with this.....

    But that may be because.......

    From Page 8:
    "6. The insert is to be connected only to a lined masonry chimney and masonry fireplace conforming
    to building codes for use with solid fuel. Do not remove bricks or mortar from the existing
    fireplace when installing the insert. "


    As an inspector (if I was one), I could read a couple things into that. First, the fireplace - as is - must be able to be used as a open fireplace with wood. Again, without looking too far - it seems that it cannot be with that wood there.

    Some references which may apply with open fireplaces:
    R1001.11 Fireplace clearance. All wood beams, joists, studs and other combustible material shall have a clearance of not less than 2 inches (51 mm) from the front faces and sides of masonry fireplaces and not less than 4 inches (102 mm) from the back faces of masonry fireplaces. The air space shall not be filled, except to provide fire blocking in accordance with Section R1001.12.

    Again, please don't shoot the messenger and I truly think the existing install with the insert may be OK - although without an R-Value on the insert manual it's tough to figure.

    My main concern is the use of such a fireplace in the future by another homeowner who may remove the insert and use an open fireplace. At that point, it would seem that the wood stud would have to be removed to make the 2" with air space required in the IRC.
  19. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    In order to make certain this information is available to others, I have posted a couple links below:

    In addition to the articles at our info area:
    http://www.hearth.com/what/specific.php

    I have posted the following new Wiki entry discussing the potential problems of proper clearances when installing stoves and inserts into masonry fireplaces. Furthermore, the entry discusses the danger of most Masonry fireplaces themselves....when used heavily (in event of power failure, etc.)

    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Masonry_Firepaces_-Not_up_to_Code/

    I apologize for any hijack of this thread - this info does not pertain to this particular installation only (as I mentioned, it is probably 100% OK), but I think some links to the relevant subjects will help future readers of these forums.
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