Outside Air Question...interesting option?

[fatcaaat]

I have a question related to outside air. My Quadrafire 5100 insert has the option to use outside air for combustion. When the insert is installed, the ash cleanout in the back of the masonry fireplace is uncovered. This area leads down into the basement (which is poorly sealed) to a very large cleanout area. Since there are no ashes in there or every will be, can I just open up the outside air on the side of the unit and cover the ash clean out area in the basement with some mesh? Is this a wise thing to do?

This may help assist with cold drafts in my downstairs rooms since it is pulling air from my windows and doors to do the burning. I figure I can just pull air from the basement instead. Just a thought.

Also, that being said, do I really even need to run a line...afterall, the opening on the floor is big and the insert surround covers everything back there.

Thanks for any tips.

 

[LLigetfa]

I doubt the insert would seal well to the hearth so it might still take warm air from the room rather than pull heavier cold air up from below. Generally an OAK pushes cold air.

I would consider fashioning a steel plate with a rod on it to slide over the ash clean-out hole to regulate the air in case you get a cold draft when there's no fire in the stove.

 

[Todd]

I modified my ash dump and installed a direct OAK to my stove. I also sealed my basement cleanout and drilled a 4" hole from the outside of the chimney for fresh air. The stove has no problem drawing in the outside cold air and I can feel it working by placing my hand in front of that outside vent.

 

[herdbull]

I was just thinking of this yesterday. I have an Englander 30 coming this week to replace the 1101 and was wondering if opening that ash dump wold circulate colder air from the basement. I have an open concept staircase from the 1st floor to the basement. There is no way to close it off so I'm always pulling air from down there anyway. The ash dump goes all the way to basement floor and I wonder if opening this would help "naturally" circulate the air from the basement?

It wouldn't be cold air from outside but somewhat cooler air from the basement. Running these things 24/7 really circulates the air in the house. Does anyone know how to calculate air consumption on a stove? Or how much air it's "moving"? Would be curious to see.

 

[semipro]

Generally an OAK pushes cold air.

A stove creates a vacuum which pulls air through the OAK. Any OAK "pushing" cold air is installed improperly and potentially dangerous.

 

[LLigetfa]

Generally an OAK pushes cold air.

A stove creates a vacuum which pulls air through the OAK. Any OAK "pushing" cold air is installed improperly and potentially dangerous.

Unless your stove is on an upper floor, it is more than likely to be below the neutral pressure plane. That means the air pressure outside the building envelope will be higher than the pressure in the room. It does not mean the OAK is installed improperly.

If you have a makeup air intake on your furnace, disconnect it and see if cold air is pushing into the room. Anywhere you can feel a cold draft around a door or window, it is cold air pushing in because of the NPP.

 

[semipro]

Generally an OAK pushes cold air.

A stove creates a vacuum which pulls air through the OAK. Any OAK "pushing" cold air is installed improperly and potentially dangerous.

Unless your stove is on an upper floor, it is more than likely to be below the neutral pressure plane. That means the air pressure outside the building envelope will be higher than the pressure in the room. It does not mean the OAK is installed improperly.

If you have a makeup air intake on your furnace, disconnect it and see if cold air is pushing into the room. Anywhere you can feel a cold draft around a door or window, it is cold air pushing in because of the NPP.

Push versus pull is really semantics and depending upon whether you're looking at it from the inside or out.

However, if you have an OAK that is pressurized and pushing air directly into your stove you run a great risk of having Carbon Monoxide or other combustion byproducts leak from the stove into your living space. The OAK should not be under pressure respective to the inside of the house. Only as much air as the stove needs (pulls) should come through it.

Yes, low pressure created inside the house by the stove, other combustion appliances, or the stack effect may pull air in from outside. But those things also consume whatever is pulled in.

The important thing is that OAKs not enter on a high pressure (windward) side of you house resulting in pressurization of your stove. A properly installed one is never under pressure from wind. The best have two inlets, one on each side of a house to balance pressures so that no air is pushed into the house envelope other than what stove needs. Crawlspaces typically work well too because they are vented to both sides of the house.

 

[MarkinNC]

Generally an OAK pushes cold air.

A stove creates a vacuum which pulls air through the OAK. Any OAK "pushing" cold air is installed improperly and potentially dangerous.

Unless your stove is on an upper floor, it is more than likely to be below the neutral pressure plane. That means the air pressure outside the building envelope will be higher than the pressure in the room. It does not mean the OAK is installed improperly.

If you have a makeup air intake on your furnace, disconnect it and see if cold air is pushing into the room. Anywhere you can feel a cold draft around a door or window, it is cold air pushing in because of the NPP.

Push versus pull is really semantics and depending upon whether you're looking at it from the inside or out.

However, if you have an OAK that is pressurized and pushing air directly into your stove you run a great risk of having Carbon Monoxide or other combustion byproducts leak from the stove into your living space. The OAK should not be under pressure respective to the inside of the house. Only as much air as the stove needs (pulls) should come through it.

Yes, low pressure created inside the house by the stove, other combustion appliances, or the stack effect may pull air in from outside. But those things also consume whatever is pulled in.

The important thing is that OAKs not enter on a high pressure (windward) side of you house resulting in pressurization of your stove. A properly installed one is never under pressure from wind. The best have two inlets, one on each side of a house to balance pressures so that no air is pushed into the house envelope other than what stove needs. Crawlspaces typically work well too because they are vented to both sides of the house.

Do you have any proof of this assertion that OAKS are dangerous in regard to CO, even a single incident? One would think with all the testing that is performed on modern stoves, an OAK would not be an option or required in some installations. I may have to try and blow compressed air in mine to see if there is a difference. All in all with the air control shut down or closed, I would guess minimal change.

 

[semipro]

Generally an OAK pushes cold air.

A stove creates a vacuum which pulls air through the OAK. Any OAK "pushing" cold air is installed improperly and potentially dangerous.

Unless your stove is on an upper floor, it is more than likely to be below the neutral pressure plane. That means the air pressure outside the building envelope will be higher than the pressure in the room. It does not mean the OAK is installed improperly.

If you have a makeup air intake on your furnace, disconnect it and see if cold air is pushing into the room. Anywhere you can feel a cold draft around a door or window, it is cold air pushing in because of the NPP.

Push versus pull is really semantics and depending upon whether you're looking at it from the inside or out.

However, if you have an OAK that is pressurized and pushing air directly into your stove you run a great risk of having Carbon Monoxide or other combustion byproducts leak from the stove into your living space. The OAK should not be under pressure respective to the inside of the house. Only as much air as the stove needs (pulls) should come through it.

Yes, low pressure created inside the house by the stove, other combustion appliances, or the stack effect may pull air in from outside. But those things also consume whatever is pulled in.

The important thing is that OAKs not enter on a high pressure (windward) side of you house resulting in pressurization of your stove. A properly installed one is never under pressure from wind. The best have two inlets, one on each side of a house to balance pressures so that no air is pushed into the house envelope other than what stove needs. Crawlspaces typically work well too because they are vented to both sides of the house.

Do you have any proof of this assertion that OAKS are dangerous in regard to CO, even a single incident? One would think with all the testing that is performed on modern stoves, an OAK would not be an option or required in some installations.

I had my CO meter go off one windy night when I'd let the fire get very low. I've believe I've read of others here having the same experiience. My OAK inlet at the time was installed on the north side of the house in a very windy area.

Don't misunderstand me. I've used an OAK on all four stoves that I've run in 3 different houses. I support their use in tight houses and believe they prevent far more problems with combustion appliance backdrafting than they have ever caused through wind pressuization.

Stoves are not airtight, not nearly. If it wasn't for the vacuum that the flue creates smoke would leak out of them everywhere. There's an active post on this presently in the forum.

If air enters via a wind-pressurized OAK into a stove with a cold flue (low vacuum) some of the gases in the firebox are going to leak out into the room. Yes, some gases will go up the flue but they will take the path of least resistence and some will leak out the stove.