Pellet stove problems

[Grader07]

I have a quadrafire trekker stove installed in my basement currently. Was installed to replace the quadrafire mt vernon e2 stove(brand new) that was just put in back in Oct 2019. After many weeks of issues with the e2 and smoke filling the room among many other failed solutions to problems the dealer finally decided to yank that stove and replace with the current trekker model. I have used this stove since December with no issues other than a loud vibration that i was told would disappear after some time of use. The vibration occurs after ignition and during the first few minutes of the stove heating up to output heat into room. They installed an outside air kit for the first stove that didnt fix its problem and they left it unhooked on this trekker because they said i didnt need it. The installer told me that the OAK was probably what was causing the noise because of the cold air circulation. So this kit has been unhooked all winter... i decided to hook it up after i read an interesting article on the benefits of the air kit. The noise hasnt changed with or without the use of the OAK. The reason i myself opted to hook it up was because the glass on the stove door got really black sooted after a week and i got tired of cleaning the glass and changing trim setting to fix the problem. Nothings works It still get black soot baked on glass and the rumble is still there. Factory setting on the trekker is 5 for feed/air. It is all incorporated into bluetooth thermostat controller with no independent settings anymore. Normally i burn Lignetic pellets because they burn very well in my mt vernon AE insert that is upstairs but didnt seem to preform quite as well in the trekker so i switch the Appalachian pellets for the trekker. Very clean pellet but still cant keep the glass from sooting even with AOK hooked up. The venting is a horizontal run off back of stove for about 1 foot then up vertical for 3 to 3 1/2 feet then a 90 to go outside thru wall to a 4 feet horizontal run that terminates outside block wall with a bullet duravent cap that is angled slightly downward to not collect rain water. Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated??? Thanks so much and sorry for the long post....

 

[DAKSY]

Sounds like it's venting issue, to me, since BOTH units malfunctioned with the existing set up.
Specifically, referencing the Equivalent Vertical Length (EVL)
I could be mistaken, but I think you need bigger vent.
From your manual:
90s are equivalent to 5 feet, (x 2=10')
& each horizontal foot is equal to 2 feet (x 5 = 10).
3 feet of vertical = 3 feet (x1 = 3')...
So 10 + 10 + 3 = 23' (EVL)
General rule of thumb is 4" venting for over 15 feet EVL.
Maybe if you made the switch to 4" you'd have better luck.
Just my $.02...
Others may chime in now...

 

[Grader07]

Sounds like it's venting issue, to me, since BOTH units malfunctioned with the existing set up.
Specifically, referencing the Equivalent Vertical Length (EVL)
I could be mistaken, but I think you need bigger vent.
From your manual:
90s are equivalent to 5 feet, (x 2=10')
& each horizontal foot is equal to 2 feet (x 5 = 10).
3 feet of vertical = 3 feet (x1 = 3')...
So 10 + 10 + 3 = 23' (EVL)
General rule of thumb is 4" venting for over 15 feet EVL.
Maybe if you made the switch to 4" you'd have better luck.
Just my $.02...
Others may chime in now...

Thanks for the reply! The venting is 4 inch all the way thru. The 90’s are actually t’s and both have caps on one end for cleanouts. My apologies for not being more clear... do you still think its a venting issue now? I have said same thing since day one that i feel it needs more vertical run outside for a better draft but being the stove uses a fan for combustion to blow out i wasnt sure...

 

[DAKSY]

The manual DOES recommend 5' of vertical for mitigating draft problems during power outages...
And you will have to add another 90, so I don't know if the increase with help, but that's the only
common denominator between BOTH your units...

 

[Grader07]

The manual DOES recommend 5' of vertical for mitigating draft problems during power outages...
And you will have to add another 90, so I don't know if the increase with help, but that's the only
common denominator between BOTH your units...

Sounds about right but is that what could be causing the rumbling sound too? Its hard to describe what that sounds like but im pretty sure its not any of the fans. Its almost like its getting to much air or fuel but no matter the setting on this trekker it still does it. If i go past factory setting of 5 the glass really gets dirty fast and the vibration continues. But as ive said there is no individual settings for air or fuel anymore.

 

[DAKSY]

I honestly don't know what is causing your "rumbling."
I have Harman pellet stoves & have been trained on them.
I have worked on very few Quads.

 

[Grader07]

I honestly don't know what is causing your "rumbling."
I have Harman pellet stoves & have been trained on them.
I have worked on very few Quads.

Is a t equivalent to a 90 on the EVL (5ft)?
i just remeasured everything... it t’s off back of stove then 3 ft vertical rise then t’s to go out thru wall with only a 3 foot piece and the bullet cap. So using your venting figures that puts me at 19 ft instead of 23 ft but it is definitely 4 in vent all the way thru.

 

[Ssyko]

the rumblling you hear, does it sound like a train going through the stove? I have never worked on or even seen the new Trekker series but some for the mt vernon and cb1200's would sound like a train in them. usually you could lower the amount of pellets fed and it would improve. most of the sound comes from the velocity of air going through the pellets in the pot till it burns down after start up

 

[Grader07]

the rumblling you hear, does it sound like a train going through the stove? I have never worked on or even seen the new Trekker series but some for the mt vernon and cb1200's would sound like a train in them. usually you could lower the amount of pellets fed and it would improve. most of the sound comes from the velocity of air going through the pellets in the pot till it burns down after start up

Yes kind of... its almost like when you are driving down the road and someone puts the back window down and you get the rumbling till you put the window back up(mostly in an SUV). So the factory setting is 5 for the feed/air. The settings go from 1-9 and I have been using setting 1 and 2 since the stove was installed and it has done it on every setting. Like i mentioned above this trekker stove is equivalent to the mt vernon e2 but unlike the e2 which has its feed rate and a fine tune knob this one doesnt have that... its all done within the blue tooth thermostat. Using the lower settings def helped with the sooting issue when the stove was burning all the time in Jan thru March but right now seems to be a little difficult for a stove that size because its not really cold enough to “burn hot”. So how do you turn the air velocity down or is this something that im just going to have to deal with?

 

[BUBIBEAR]

From the pic, I need to ask .Is your vent pipe four inch I.D or four inch O .D .

 

[MalcolmH]

^Agreed, it does look narrow in the pics, and they did go through a block wall making 3" easier. I'm not a big fan of the cleanout T at eye level, I get it but not the best seal usually at that junction and not good flow either, I also don't like the bullet cap, but I'm pretty picky about this stuff.

 

[Grader07]

From the pic, I need to ask .Is your vent pipe four inch I.D or four inch O .D .

Never thought to check BUBIBEAR but i just did and it is 3 inch diameter on the inside so after seeing that id say that could be a lot of the problem now.... according to my manual it says 3-4 inch would work because im only 110 ft above sea level and the EVL is only 14.5 ft after rechecking that and consulting my manual. 2 - t’s @ 5 ft = 10 ft, 3 ft of vertical run @ .5 = 1.5 ft, 3 ft horizontal run @ 1 = 3 ft... thats what my manual has for info.

 

[Grader07]

^Agreed, it does look narrow in the pics, and they did go through a block wall making 3" easier. I'm not a big fan of the cleanout T at eye level, I get it but not the best seal usually at that junction and not good flow either, I also don't like the bullet cap, but I'm pretty picky about this stuff.

I am not a fan of that end either... this whole story behind these two stoves is so long and way to much to write but lets just say its been an adventure and one that i wish i hadnt been part of and leave it at that....

 

[mtnbiker727]

Is the rumbling a cracking noise like the stove metal heating up?

The glass in my Harman gets dirty every week with good pellets and good burning. But, it's not black soot....
If there is black soot you either don't have enough air, or have too much fuel (or poor quality fuel), because it's not burning hot enough.

Have you checked the door gasket with the dollar bill test? I had black soot on my glass when the door wasn't sealing tight.

I have to ask since I had my own issues with smoke in the house until recently.... Did the dealer use an appliance adapter? Was the pipe sealed with RTV silicon on the inside of the joints prior to them being connected together?

 

[mtnbiker727]

Another thought... my parents just purchased a Quadrafire wood stove. They said it has two drafts, one for getting the fire started, and the other is for maintaining the fire. The starter draft will eventually close on it's own based on temperature if you don't close it yourself. Maybe the Quadrafire pellet stoves have an extra forced draft when the fire is starting that shuts off after it's going????

 

[Grader07]

So i contacted my dealer about the issues AGAIN today and he insisted that i do not need 4 inch vent pipe and that the rumbling can be taken care of by increasing my feed... i told him i connected the OAK and he said that-no matter if that is hooked up that i will still be drawing air from inside the house... not sure how that is but.....he looked at my info for the length of pipe i had installed when stove was hooked up... i said my manual says it is recommended to have a minimum of 5 ft vertical and mine only has 3 ft. I also told him i read somewhere that for a basement install it is recommended 4 inch vent... he just got quiet and didnt say much other than i should be fine with 3 inch. I told him when i increased the feed to 6 off the factory recommended setting of 5 it trashed my glass lightning fast and that it also says a well burning fire is to be 6-9 inches outta the pot and by going higher than the 1-2 setting ive been using all winter the flames reach the top of the door. He must think he has me buffaloed but this is what ive been dealing with since day one and hence the reason i decided to turn to this forum for help... much more valuable learning here for sure... not sure what else to say guys other than when the guy comes to clean my chimneys and stoves try to get him to switch things a bit and try again next heating season

 

[Ssyko]

Grader07 I feel your frustration with your installer. 1st fact indicated in your photos is your oak if connected does not draw from inside the house so you are correct on that. The EVL although 2ft short in vertical rise I don't feel it would be that critical in such a short distance, along with the vent size. Like I said I'm not that knowledgeable on that model and it's controls. But noise coming from the movement of the air through the stove will be either combustion blower speed or fuel in the pot during start up mode. Usually most manufacturers use a preprogrammed start up cycle that does not allow any interference till it completes it's start up time. Pellet stoves do not have 2 air controls (automatic or otherwise) it is controlled by blower speeds or blower in conjunction with a damper rod. If it were mine I would start by cleaning the vent and all pathes through the stove, then by checking all the holes in the burn pot and ensure they are open including igniter opening. Give it a try and let us know how you make out

 

[mtnbiker727]

i said my manual says it is recommended to have a minimum of 5 ft vertical and mine only has 3 ft.

You have a forced exhaust fan, so the height of rise only matters when the power goes out to keep your house from getting full of smoke as the fire slowly burns itself out... If you put in a UPS, then even that doesn't matter.

Is this the sound you hear (from the Trekker owner's manual):

I. Fire pot Purge
Purpose: To help remove debris from the fire pot and help
the unit burn as efficient as possible.
The frequency of the purge cycle is once every 30 minutes
while the unit is burning. During the fire pot purge, the feed
is reduced to the lowest setting and the exhaust blower
ramps up to a very high setting. The purge cycle lasts 99
seconds.
The purge cycle does not replace daily cleaning.

 

[Grader07]

You have a forced exhaust fan, so the height of rise only matters when the power goes out to keep your house from getting full of smoke as the fire slowly burns itself out... If you put in a UPS, then even that doesn't matter.

Is this the sound you hear (from the Trekker owner's manual):

I. Fire pot Purge
Purpose: To help remove debris from the fire pot and help
the unit burn as efficient as possible.
The frequency of the purge cycle is once every 30 minutes
while the unit is burning. During the fire pot purge, the feed
is reduced to the lowest setting and the exhaust blower
ramps up to a very high setting. The purge cycle lasts 99
seconds.
The purge cycle does not replace daily cleaning.

The purge happens on shutdown and the hot embers all blow out of the fire pot... only need to clean out ash pan for the clickers or debris left in fire pot after pulling the lever. Hardly ever anything to clean out as all the ash blows out and lands on the floor inside the pellet stove

 

[Grader07]

Grader07 I feel your frustration with your installer. 1st fact indicated in your photos is your oak if connected does not draw from inside the house so you are correct on that. The EVL although 2ft short in vertical rise I don't feel it would be that critical in such a short distance, along with the vent size. Like I said I'm not that knowledgeable on that model and it's controls. But noise coming from the movement of the air through the stove will be either combustion blower speed or fuel in the pot during start up mode. Usually most manufacturers use a preprogrammed start up cycle that does not allow any interference till it completes it's start up time. Pellet stoves do not have 2 air controls (automatic or otherwise) it is controlled by blower speeds or blower in conjunction with a damper rod. If it were mine I would start by cleaning the vent and all pathes through the stove, then by checking all the holes in the burn pot and ensure they are open including igniter opening. Give it a try and let us know how you make out

I have cleaned all parts of the stove and down behind with a 5/8 flexible hose attachment into exhaust ports. All holes as you mentioned have also been cleaned and i get same sound and dirty glass. I am going out on a limb here but am asking a separate installer how much it would be to replace the 3 inch vent to a 4 inch.... its the only thing left to try to be honest... but i did notice that when i took the cap off of the t going out of the house to clean the horizontal run the draft is coming into the pipe from outside verses being sucked out... i know on a regular chimney when you put hand in front of the hole you can feel air sucking out of the house. Not sure same applies here because of the short run but thought it may be worth mentioning... just wondering it that could be the issue??? Not that 4 inch would change that but maybe another vertical piece outside???

 

[mtnbiker727]

.. but i did notice that when i took the cap off of the t going out of the house to clean the horizontal run the draft is coming into the pipe from outside verses being sucked out... i know on a regular chimney when you put hand in front of the hole you can feel air sucking out of the house. Not sure same applies here because of the short run but thought it may be worth mentioning... just wondering it that could be the issue??? Not that 4 inch would change that but maybe another vertical piece outside???

I have 6 feet of rise inside the house in a basement install. Every time I have had the pipe disconnected the air falls through the pipe into the house. I don't think that is your problem. When the stove is running the exhaust fan will push the smoke out, as long as the pipe is not restricting the flow. According to the chart in the installation manual for your stove, and your calculations, you are well within the acceptable range for using 3" pipe.

 

[Grader07]

I have 6 feet of rise inside the house in a basement install. Every time I have had the pipe disconnected the air falls through the pipe into the house. I don't think that is your problem. When the stove is running the exhaust fan will push the smoke out, as long as the pipe is not restricting the flow. According to the chart in the installation manual for your stove, and your calculations, you are well within the acceptable range for using 3" pipe.

Yes according to the manual i am well within the range for 3 inch for sure. So you have air spilling inside when you clean your pipe too... good to know thanks... what size vent do you have?

 

[mtnbiker727]

Yes according to the manual i am well within the range for 3 inch for sure. So you have air spilling inside when you clean your pipe too... good to know thanks... what size vent do you have?

I have 3" Duravent Pellet Vent Pro.

 

[Highbeam]

Maybe it's just that pellet stoves are noisy. It's not supposed to be quiet.

 

[Jigger]

Does your stove have a clean out behind the stove? I'm just wondering if it's possible that the pipe could be loaded with fine ash chocking it off. It happened to me once and sound just like that.