Please help me size a room for a stove...

[rsilvers]

The main room it is in is about 15x18 feet, but more than two levels high (about 25 feet I think). It has a 72 inch large ceiling fan on a long, maybe 6 foot down-rod. Way up high, there are two large 6x5 foot cutouts that expose the upstairs hallways.

Right beside the fireplace room and completely open to it is another 15x18 room with a normal ceiling. On the other side is a 7 foot wide opening to a 9x26 foot room. That room has a wide opening to a 17x20 foot kitchen.

The fireplace opening is 41 inches high in the center, 32 inches high on the ends, and 48 inches wide. I think this one is high enough so that I could use a top-vent stove and push it in a bit.

Along the floor, LEGOs are strewn about.

The flu looks narrow - like 5 inches. Not sure if you can easily take that out? Are there round to rectangular adaptors for lining?

The brick in front of the fireplace extends 22 inches out.

Are there any other measurements that I need?

Thank you.

 

[begreen]

Is this a different location or house from the other thread?

 

[rsilvers]

Yes. This place also has oil heat, though I only average maybe 1 day a week here the winter. Still, it would be nice to have a stove to heat the place up quicker and add something to do.

 

[rsilvers]

Pics:

 

[Grisu]

The problem with the fireplace is that the walls are curved in which makes it rather shallow. Installing a top-vent stove may be possible but could be difficult depending were the damper opening is. Given the size of the room and the many connections to the rest of the house, putting a large stove in there would be my suggestion. You will need all the heating power you can get in that house. I would look at the same rear-vent stoves that were mentioned in the other thread. Preferably a shallow one that it not sits right on the edge of the hearth. The Quadra Isle Royale or the Hearthstone Manchester would be good options. The Jotul F600 may be a bit too deep. You could build a box with the same dimensions of your preferred stove and see how that fits in there.

The flu looks narrow - like 5 inches. Not sure if you can easily take that out? Are there round to rectangular adaptors for lining?

That seems to be just the damper opening, not the actual flue. It looks like you will need to cut out the damper frame or at least cut a hole in there to get the liner through. Ovalizing the liner may also be an option although it is not as good. To get the correct flue size you would need to get up on the roof or pay a sweep to clean the chimney and measure it.

 

[rsilvers]

Yeah. I just read online that you can do one of three things - SawzAll the metal, remove the metal, or ovalize a section of liner.

Question - if I buy a used F600 for this location - I don't know what a good price is. How much is a like-new but used F600 worth? What is the best price that you can reasonably get an F600 new from a dealer for?

 

[begreen]

Price may vary. Call around to some Jotul dealers and ask if they have a floor model they want to sell. Or ask Woodstock if you can get a two-fer price discount on the PH?

http://nh.craigslist.org/for/4451321590.html

 

[rsilvers]

If I end up loving the PH, then maybe I will wish that I did that - but it is too early to know if I would want to spend that much extra because this location uses only about 400 gallons of oil a year, so I am not super concerned about the difference in efficiency, and think the Jotul looks better.

I doubt I would burn more than 1/2 cord a year, so that is like $100 worth of wood, and the PH is about 20-30% more efficient, so that is like $20-$30. If the price difference is $1800, then it would take 60 years to make up for the price difference.

 

[Grisu]

If I end up loving the PH, then maybe I will wish that I did that - but it is too early to know if I would want to spend that much extra because this location uses only about 400 gallons of oil a year, so I am not super concerned about the difference in efficiency, and think the Jotul looks better.

I doubt I would burn more than 1/2 cord a year, so that is like $100 worth of wood, and the PH is about 20-30% more efficient, so that is like $20-$30. If the price difference is $1800, then it would take 60 years to make up for the price difference.

Maybe it would help if you can make it clear what your goal in burning wood really is. Because using 1/2 cord a year in one location is not really heating but ambiance. If that is all you want to do there, I would just stick with the fireplace. You will not recoup the cost of stove, liner, install by burning that minimal amount of wood. If you want to offset the full 400 gal of oil and move some of that heat to other areas of the house, you will need a stove that burns a minimum of 3 to maybe 5 cords per winter. (~3 cords for the 400 gal of oil and some extra for moving the heat around) How can you even tell how much oil is needed just for that area?

When looking at stoves, take a look at the depth. The F600 is listed with 26" which means you will need to push it into the fireplace. However, with that you may lose the side-loading option, which most Jotul owners seem to prefer. The Progress has 25", so you could face the same issue there. That's the reason I suggested the Isle Royale or Manchester. Btw. I think a new F600 retails at about $2800 so the price difference to the Progress (on sale) is not that large especially when you can combine shipping costs or even drive up there yourself. Follow BGs suggestion and make some calls.

 

[rsilvers]

The low wood/oil usage is because I only heat the place maybe 1 day every two weeks. Current boiler takes 6-10 hours to bring the place up to temp, and wood would supplement that. Right now I use a WiFi thermostat and have to remember to turn up the heat the day before we go there. But yes, ambiance is a big part of it for this location - but I know too much to be happy with a fireplace.

The fireplace is ridiculous - barely any heat and the wood burns up in no time. I am very unhappy with the concept of a fireplace. In 10 years I have used the three fireplaces in my home maybe once. On the other hand, another place I have - I put in a natural gas fireplace, and I used that every day.

Thanks for the comments on depth. Not sure I would lose the side-loading since the hearth opening is four feet wide, but I do need to check into it.

 

[Grisu]

The low wood/oil usage is because I only heat the place maybe 1 day every two weeks. Current boiler takes 6-10 hours to bring the place up to temp, and wood would supplement that. Right now I use a WiFi thermostat and have to remember to turn up the heat the day before we go there.

Is that also your plan for the next winters? Wood stoves will take too long to heat that kind of place up every time. Plus, you actually need to be there. You may need to use oil to get everything up to temp and then the wood to maintain it.

The fireplace is ridiculous - barely any heat and the wood burns up in no time. I am very unhappy with the concept of a fireplace. In 10 years I have used the three fireplaces in my home maybe once. On the other hand, another place I have - I put in a natural gas fireplace, and I used that every day.

Old-style fireplaces are not for heat, but neither is burning 1/2 cord per winter in a house that large.

Thanks for the comments on depth. Not sure I would lose the side-loading since the hearth opening is four feet wide, but I do need to check into it.

Don't forget you want to put in 18" to 20" logs and potentially get the ashes out that way or use a coal raker. Just being able to open the door may not be enough. I would also leave at least 1" to the edge of the hearth for the front legs.

 

[avsmusic1]

Seems to me that whether or not you could fit that refurbished f600 there would probably depend on how deep the fireplace is. You would have to house the back end of the unit and, if you rear vented, the ductwork/elbow in the fireplace. You appear to have the height though so it wouldn't surprise me if it would fit. Then again, that fireplace looks fairly shallow

As Grisu noted, if you end up looking for a unit with a shallow firebox than the Hearthstone Manchester is definitely worth a look. It's as shallow a footprint as I've come across for a 3cuft stove.

 

[rsilvers]

I looked at the F600. It was a model with a cat. The guy said that was how they made the F600 10+ years ago, and changed to non-cat because people would not maintain the cat properly. So the F600 CB is the newer non-cat model. What do people think of the older cat-type F600s?

It would not fit this smaller location, but could be good for the house in my previous thread if I wanted to save some money and delivery hassle from the new PH. He also had some 35-ish year old refurbished (blasted, repainted, and new gaskets) VC. Vigilant, for example looked like it would work. It is 8 inch exhaust, not sure if that fits the house, but it probably would.

MA building code requires 18 inches of non-combustible hearth on the access side. I clearly don't have that, and the fireplace is very shallow. I would have to add a hearth extension.

https://www.amherstma.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/1037

 

[begreen]

I think that is not an F600. The F600 has always been a non-cat stove. The Model 12 Firelight had the cat and top-loader. Did you note a silver foot-pedal on the lower right side?

IIRC the 12 was made up until the late 90s. I don't see a problem with it fitting there. Just extend the hearth at floor level with a hearth pad.

 

[avsmusic1]

building code requires 18 inches of non-combustible hearth on the access side. I clearly don't have that, and the fireplace is very shallow. I would have to add a hearth extension

Am I missing something? from the pics it looks like you have ample side clearance (~4ft?). You would definitely need/want a mat on the floor in front of the existing hearth but they are <$100 and can be tucked in a closet when you're not burning

 

[rsilvers]

Yeah - I would just need a hearth extension. That is my not-so good-looking solution. The kids will trip on it, but it is required to meet code.

I think that is not an F600. The F600 has always been a non-cat stove. The Model 12 Firelight had the cat and top-loader. Did you note a silver foot-pedal on the lower right side?

That is very annoying that he is selling F12s as F600s. I am going to email him and ask him if it is really an F600. I expect some labored response about how it is an F12 but it is the same thing.

He also said that a 6 inch flexible stainless chimney liner was only $200. I can only find aluminum ones for that. I am starting to think that he has an aluminum one and was calling it stainless.

 

[begreen]

The rise of the current hearth will help. You might be able to extend it with a basic 3/8" hearth pad. If the liner is 2 stories tall and done with stainless it is going to be more than $200. Figure about $1500 for the liner installation.

 

[rsilvers]

The other thing he said that was sketchy was that he used pink insulation on his own install in direct contact with the lining.

 

[rsilvers]

I didn't realize that Jotul enamel was not enamel paint. It is vitreous enamel, which is glass fused onto the metal at very high temps. I have to get it now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_enamel

 

[avsmusic1]

Interesting. I wonder if the process is different in other manufacturers

 

[begreen]

I don't think so. You will find the same finishes on several stoves. The glossy is a porcelain majolica process. The satin blue-black is the same without the glossy clear coat layers.