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Poor Draft this time with pictures

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Rhone, Aug 31, 2006.

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  1. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Now, I have pictures! First shot is picture looking up liner from inside. It's ovalized, and I see a few crimps which appear to be where bolts were put into the liner but didn't actually penetrate the flex part, instead warping. I also circled the air leaks, you can't see them all because the camera wouldn't go wide angle enough. Another is I put a flashlight inside and shined it up the liner, shut off all the lights, and wanted to see if the liner passed the light leak test. There was A LOT of light leaking out. There were no lights on, so what you see is what escaped the liner. The other, shows the device that seems to cause the leaks. Anyone know what that is? The back of the installation is very tight. Everytime they screwed the liner into it, and pushed the insert backwards into place, the liner would hit the back wall and pop out of the insert. After 3-4 attemps he got that thing and looks to have tried to install it as a 30 though, it certainly isn't a 30. It also doesn't even look like it's attached does it? He also kept screaming if only the flex were a few more inches longer. My flue is 7x11.

    So, is my liner too crimped/ovalized? What is that part that's above my insert that my flex is going into with all the leaks? What's the correct piece to fix the leaks and make it work?

    Thanks.

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  2. zzr7ky

    zzr7ky Minister of Fire

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    How tall is the Chimney? I'm not knowledgable but those that are will want to know. I'm in the process of building a chimney.

    ATB,
    Mike P
  3. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Here's a couple more pictures of the light leaks.

    Attached Files:

  4. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    The chimney is about 14 feet I believe, could be 16 feet. I have those two numbers in my head when the installers were calculating the liner. Difficult now to measure or count the tiles.
  5. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Not even attached?. Cut the damn damper out enough to take pressure off the pipe so it can be slid in and out without the pressuer caused by the damper pass threw that disconnects the fitting. Great detective work. Better yet do as I suggested in my PM to you that 2" short problem will haunt you every time you move the insert plus disconnect at the fittings. That installation sucks no other way to put it
  6. NFreiermuth

    NFreiermuth New Member

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    Oh My God!!!!

    That liner install is a complete mess!!!

    It is a tad too much ovalized for my taste. With the other problems, I can overlook that as a minor problem. The leaks and that awful transition piece are horrible, and what concerns me the most. You NEED to have the transition from the liner to your insert re-fabricated. It needs to be WELDED stainless steel so there isn't any galvanic action between the liner and the transition. Also, that piece needs to be leak proof all the way into the stove. In other words, the liner must sit in a sleeve that hols both the inside and outside of the liner as it rests on the transition piece. Leaking creosote would be a disaster waiting to happen!!! It also wouldn't hurt to pull that liner out and insulate it. Finally, hose clamps are permissible to hold the insulation and protective mesh onto the liner, but NEVER to hold the liner and transitions to the stove. PERIOD!!! Most major manufacturers sell the neccessary components you would need. Stop but a stove shop and tell them your problem, they'll gladly help. Also, now you'll know what to ask for.

    When installed to UL 1777 code, you won't have ANY problems. Personally, I wouldn't use that until it is repaired properly.
  7. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    "You NEED to have the transition from the liner to your insert re-fabricated. It needs to be WELDED stainless steel so there isn’t any galvanic action between the liner and the transition. Also, that piece needs to be leak proof all the way into the stove."

    What in the world are you talking about. That stove adapter is welded 321 stainless. Read the label on it. And it is doing exactly what it was born to do. Any drain down from that liner is going right back into the stove where it is supposed to go.

    As far as insulation goes, there is no way in hell to get a six inch liner down a 11 X 7 internal dimension tile flue with insulation wrapped around it. Been there, done that, have the skinned knuckles to prove it.

    Furnace cement, that should be put on any of thes at the adapter, will seal those air leaks at the adapter bottom and where it meets the pipe.
  8. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Okay, am I getting the sense the installation should be ripped out? Brother Bart, you don't think it's strange that piece that seems to be floating and not attached above the item that says 321 SS? Looking up the flue pipe, it's the piece on the very outside.

    I should cut out my damper, purchase a new flex pipe but at least another foot longer than the one that's there, I can re-use the stainless rigid I have. Then, install it myself. This piece that's supposed to fit inside & out and connect to the insert. Know where to get one online?
  9. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    What the adapter looks like to me is this:

    It just looks like a stainless steel stove/liner adapter with clamps on the bottom and top to hold the liner attached to the stove. The stainless section between the bottom and the top has to be able to adjust to the angle and so the attached clamps hold the adapter together and the pipe in the adapter. because of the angles it can't seal itself but adapters should be sealed to the stove and the pipe with furnace cement anyway to make them draft/leak proof. Mine is cast iron, fits like a glove and I still sealed it. I don't see anything in those pics that say you need to toss that liner. If a different adapter would give piece of mind then by all means get one. There are lots of different ones available. Hart's Hearth has pics of them in their online catalog but be ready to pop another hundred bucks. As opposed to six bucks for cement.

    I just cannot believe that stove is drafting that poorly and not producing creosote. You ran a hell of a lot of wood through it last season and got zip out of the pipe when it was cleaned. And their isn't a bunch of creosote around the leaks in the adapter either. I still am convinced that the combination of a soapstone lining and being buried in that big hunk of bricks open to the attic is eating the heat.

    As too the kink from the damper, that isn't anywhere near as restictive as all of those 90 degree tees in thousands of liner jobs all over the country.

    My 3.43 inflation adjusted cents worth.
  10. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Thanks BrotherBart.

    I've been teetering on ripping it all out, and at this point I think I'm just going to do it and get it done with. Rip it out, cut the damper, replace the flex with longer flex, put it all back, pack the top with mineral wool insulation as far as I can, get an extend-a-flue, really make the block-off tight, and see where I stand afterward. Then, maybe things will work right and I won't have smoke spewing out into the living area on reload setting the fire alarms off. It's embarrasing when we have company, or at 2 AM when I reload having the fire alarms go off puts me in the dog house for a day or two with the wife. Maybe it won't take 3 hours to warm up anymore. I may even be able to use it when it's warmer than 45F outside so on those nights when it's 48F I don't have to set my alarm for 2AM.

    Last weekend I closed off the penetration in the attic around the chimney with metal and covered it with 16" of mineral wool. That should take care of that! I can claim it on my taxes as an envelope improvement. I checked out Hart's Hearth, really interesting site I kept getting distracted by them putting Jesus Christ along with chimney parts but their pricing is decent. I'm going to rip it out on Friday night, looks like good chance of rain all weekend but once it's out I'll have no place to go but forward.
  11. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Rhone I sent you a PM with info on some people that treated me really well on listed liners but the email address bounced.
  12. Roospike

    Roospike New Member

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    Maybe I missed something here ( as i sometimes do ) can you not get a hold of the installers that hooked up you stove and installed it ? If it was a bad install I would think it would be there baby ..............
  13. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

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    Hmm... I think my PM name is Rhonemas. Try again please.

    Roo, the installers did the best they could, I got charged a 4 hour install and it took them around 20 hours to do it. It was brutal, and worse was after they were done I analyzed my unit and wondered why are all the heat channels ending way behind the surround. That's when it hit me, no mention in the manual the unit has to be pulled out on the hearth as far as possible to be used for heating, and when installed flush with the surround it's for ambiance and little heat comes out. No mention of that in the manual. I called them up to come back and modify the install and told them to charge me for it. They insisted they'd do it free, they just want me happy. That required them to swap the flue around and flex wouldn't fit with that configuration and the guy spent another 6 hours and that's what I was left with. I then called them back and told them they crimped my liner and it needs to be all pulled out and reinstalled. I never heard back from them and, I don't think I can go there I think I've been banned! I don't blame them, if I were a business I personally would've put a limit after about the first 10 hours, then confronted the customer about getting more $.
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