Power outage with cat stove and blower

[VirginiaIron]

Just saying Buck Stoves using catalytic explained in 23-24 in the manual reads---
Do not "hot fire" the stove. For many years retailers and installers have advised customers to build an extra
hot fire to burn creosote deposits in the fire system. This advice may be acceptable for non-cat stoves, but
can be death to a catalyst. Why? Because the catalyst is reducing the particulate, or creosote buildup,
therefore the need to "hot fire" is eliminated. On page 24 it reads to not boil water soooo why is this? Aren't all cats made the same?

Accidentally deleted. I guess you can't use boiling water or high pressure air high pressure water because the item is fragile particularly fragile when it's outside of the stove. I saw something in the instructions about not allowing Flames to enter the catalyst cuz that would damage it I guess it calls it firing.

 

[Blazing]

Ok, Maybe I missed something. I didn't see anything in that manual that said shut the bypass at xxx degrees, just time- assuming time equals degrees. But that also relies on a wood supply that is dry, for a period of time, and not wet by rain.

Time is irrelevant when talking about the combustor lighting off. It has to reach a set temp, so no matter if you burn 15 minutes or two hours that temp has to be reached. I'm not saying the manual doesn't say close at said time but I would find it strange they would go off time vs temp.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Time is irrelevant when talking about the combustor lighting off. It has to reach a set temp, so no matter if you burn 15 minutes or two hours that temp has to be reached. I'm not saying the manual doesn't say close at said time but I would find it strange they would go off time vs temp.

..."Light Off Temperature: CO conversation (conversion?) in the Applied Ceramics catalyst begins at a very low temperature. Usually, a normal start up to produce a coal bed will produce more than sufficient temperatures
to begin catalytic combustion."

 

[black smoke signals]

..."Light Off Temperature: CO conversation in the Applied Ceramics catalyst begins at a very low temperature. Usually, a normal start up to produce a coal bed will produce more than sufficient temperatures
to begin catalytic combustion."

I was talking about BUCK INSERTS not wanting to confuse with BK instruction I always though all cats must be the same my Bad.

 

[VirginiaIron]

I was talking about BUCK INSERTS not wanting to confuse with BK instruction I always though all cats must be the same my Bad.

The information I quoted came from the Buck 91 manual. No problem. It is always best for the OP to perform his own research and seek confirmation to satisfy his own interest.

 

[Blazing]

..."Light Off Temperature: CO conversation in the Applied Ceramics catalyst begins at a very low temperature. Usually, a normal start up to produce a coal bed will produce more than sufficient temperatures
to begin catalytic combustion."

Exactly! My stove can have a handful of coals and still read active. My point is at that point the gas load is basically non existent in the end of the burn. In the beginning there is a huge amount of off gassing and as you said moisture content plays a large roll. I was thinking the op might be able to either leave the bypass open longer or burn at a higher rate letting some of this excess gas escape. It's like backing a fresh load down fast and the gas builds up then bang ignites because it became fuel rich. If you had backed it down slower or burned it in higher longer the chances lessen this will happen.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Maybe the catalyst technology requires vigilance in the method of operation until all factors are accounted for and an occasional visit to the manual just to make sure.

 

[crater22]

Many thanks for all the comments and ideas. I will try to explain my current start up and reload. First, 90 percent of my wood comes in split, but big sizes. Large rounds do not fit to well under the heat shield. 2nd, by chimney is about 16 foot high, and inside (meaning not coming up the outside of the house. I will start a fire and slowly lower the "shout gun air" to;; closed all the way. I might start shutting down the primary a little at the same time. Once the cat probe hits between 600 and 800 I will close the bypass. Then slowly start closing down the primary with just a little at a time. Once I hit 1000 I consider it ready to walk away. My wood is 95 percent well seasoned Ash. As I said. it is after some time that the probe starts to climb

On a reload, I usually get the cat prob up between 800 and 900 before I close the bypass.

Would having bark on some of the splits have any problem, Meaning trapping in the gasses until the bark is burned? I don't have much wood that the bark has not fallen off of. The moisture is NONE. The wind trys to blow it out of my hands when handling outside. I have never fully loaded the insert to the max, reason being I am afraid of it getting away from me and not being able to calm it down.

Another question, other than destroying the cat, what is the damage that I overfire will cause in this stove/insert?

Again. many thanks. I really do love this hunk of steel.

 

[bholler]

Many thanks for all the comments and ideas. I will try to explain my current start up and reload. First, 90 percent of my wood comes in split, but big sizes. Large rounds do not fit to well under the heat shield. 2nd, by chimney is about 16 foot high, and inside (meaning not coming up the outside of the house. I will start a fire and slowly lower the "shout gun air" to;; closed all the way. I might start shutting down the primary a little at the same time. Once the cat probe hits between 600 and 800 I will close the bypass. Then slowly start closing down the primary with just a little at a time. Once I hit 1000 I consider it ready to walk away. My wood is 95 percent well seasoned Ash. As I said. it is after some time that the probe starts to climb

On a reload, I usually get the cat prob up between 800 and 900 before I close the bypass.

Would having bark on some of the splits have any problem, Meaning trapping in the gasses until the bark is burned? I don't have much wood that the bark has not fallen off of. The moisture is NONE. The wind trys to blow it out of my hands when handling outside. I have never fully loaded the insert to the max, reason being I am afraid of it getting away from me and not being able to calm it down.

Another question, other than destroying the cat, what is the damage that I overfire will cause in this stove/insert?

Again. many thanks. I really do love this hunk of steel.

Have you checked for leaks around the door and glass? Your chimney is not very tall so i dont think you should be over drafting. It really sounds like a leak to me.

 

[bholler]

Also are you closing the air down all the way?

 

[VirginiaIron]

Many thanks for all the comments and ideas. I will try to explain my current start up and reload. First, 90 percent of my wood comes in split, but big sizes. Large rounds do not fit to well under the heat shield. 2nd, by chimney is about 16 foot high, and inside (meaning not coming up the outside of the house. I will start a fire and slowly lower the "shout gun air" to;; closed all the way. I might start shutting down the primary a little at the same time. Once the cat probe hits between 600 and 800 I will close the bypass. Then slowly start closing down the primary with just a little at a time. Once I hit 1000 I consider it ready to walk away. My wood is 95 percent well seasoned Ash. As I said. it is after some time that the probe starts to climb

On a reload, I usually get the cat prob up between 800 and 900 before I close the bypass.

Would having bark on some of the splits have any problem, Meaning trapping in the gasses until the bark is burned? I don't have much wood that the bark has not fallen off of. The moisture is NONE. The wind trys to blow it out of my hands when handling outside. I have never fully loaded the insert to the max, reason being I am afraid of it getting away from me and not being able to calm it down.

Another question, other than destroying the cat, what is the damage that I overfire will cause in this stove/insert?

Again. many thanks. I really do love this hunk of steel.

According to this manual on page 21, Ash is considered "fair" in "starting" and "good" for in coaling. Could it be the Ash is not fully started and then gives you that "ramp" in temperature?
You only have poor, fair, and good.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/110823/New-Buck-Corporation-91.html?page=21#manual

Edit: 1. Can you try a different species to see if it is the wood or the stove?
2. Front to rear loading of wood?

 

[Woody Stover]

I didn't see anything in that manual that said shut the bypass at xxx degrees

Time is irrelevant when talking about the combustor lighting off. It has to reach a set temp, so no matter if you burn 15 minutes or two hours that temp has to be reached.

I was talking about BUCK INSERTS not wanting to confuse with BK instruction I always though all cats must be the same

Yeah, they pretty much are the same.
This is manual on the Buck website..a bit different from the one in the link you posted, VirginiaIron. Within the first several pages, it describes "Catalytic Light-Off." Yes, it does mention a time frame..."about 20 minutes," but the main point is that "The temperature in stove and gases entering combustor must be raised to between 700o F to 900o F for catalytic activity to be initiated." This is pretty much how I lit the cat in this stove, and it's what crater22 has been doing. Boiling wouldn't hurt the cat temp-wise, obviously, but might crack the ceramic if it got to bouncing around in vigorously boiling water. There are only a few cat manufacturers...Buck and BK get some of theirs from Applied Ceramics. I think Woodstock uses Clariant for the steel cats and BK may, as well.
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/feab5fd5-59f3-4766-9ab0-8865ab9d825f/downloads/1blqg2t2v_885681.pdf

Also are you closing the air down all the way?

I think this is the root of the problem, one I worked to address with the 91...I couldn't cut the air enough so that I could slow down the rate of gassing, or even stall the cat if I had desired. This made for several cases of soiled undershorts, when the cat temp kept rising past 1800, even with the air cut as far as I could. One potential problem area is the ash pan gasket...you have to have a good seal there or you can see the coals glowing over the ash dump lid, signalling that you have air coming into the box there. The other tweak to be done is to get the air control plates to seal off more tightly when fully closed.

As I said. it is after some time that the probe starts to climb....On a reload, I usually get the cat prob up between 800 and 900 before I close the bypass....Would having bark on some of the splits have any problem, Meaning trapping in the gasses until the bark is burned?....I have never fully loaded the insert to the max, reason being I am afraid of it getting away from me and not being able to calm it down....Another question, other than destroying the cat, what is the damage that I overfire will cause in this stove/insert?
I really do love this hunk of steel.

Right, that's exactly what would happen to me. I'd have the stove up to temp, bypass closed, cat temp looking good at 1200 or 1400...then later as more wood got to coaling and gassing, the cat temp would go higher than I wanted. It wouldn't happen right away after I closed the bypass. I don't think bark on the splits is a problem, it's just that we can't cut the air as much as we would like so that we would have total control over the burn and the cat temp. I don't think you'll hurt the stove by the cat temp going high, other than damaging the cat, as you said. I think that the "overfire" they are referring to in the manual would be with the air wide open, either with the bypass open or closed. With the bypass open, and a roaring fire in the box, you can glow the liner red and eventually damage it. You might also get the area around the bypass opening glowing red, which you wouldn't want. With a roaring blaze in the box and the bypass closed, you could possibly get flame impingement damage to the cat (flame directly hitting the face of the cat.) But I had some pretty lively flames going at times with the bypass closed...I could see by looking just above the heat shield that the flames weren't getting close to hitting the face of the cat so I think flame impingement damage would be hard to do with the 91.

Crater, I know exactly what you mean about "loving the big hunk of steel." Even when I was fighting to get more control of the air by doing various tweaks, I was still mighty fond of that sweet machine...620 lbs. of bad-arse stove.
It's a shame I never got to implement the final tweak, which I think would have given me total control; Bending the right slider rod up slightly, as I described above. That stove would be one sweet rig if a guy had total control. And I bet you would gain a few hours burn time in the bargain. I'd almost be tempted to come over there and have a shot at your 91, just to see if that final tweak would give us the level of control and the ease of operation that we've been seeking. But dammit man, that's a long haul from here over to where you are..like half a day's drive!

 

[crater22]

Have you checked for leaks around the door and glass? Your chimney is not very tall so i dont think you should be over drafting. It really sounds like a leak to me.

Yes, everything is o.k there. I actually replaced the gasket last year.

 

[crater22]

Also are you closing the air down all the way?

Tried closing it all the way one time. Everything was glowing bright red and I was getting back flash (?) and that scared the heck out of me.

 

[crater22]

Yeah, they pretty much are the same.
This is manual on the Buck website..a bit different from the one in the link you posted, VirginiaIron. Within the first several pages, it describes "Catalytic Light-Off." Yes, it does mention a time frame..."about 20 minutes," but the main point is that "The temperature in stove and gases entering combustor must be raised to between 700o F to 900o F for catalytic activity to be initiated." This is pretty much how I lit the cat in this stove, and it's what crater22 has been doing. Boiling wouldn't hurt the cat temp-wise, obviously, but might crack the ceramic if it got to bouncing around in vigorously boiling water. There are only a few cat manufacturers...Buck and BK get some of theirs from Applied Ceramics. I think Woodstock uses Clariant for the steel cats and BK may, as well.
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/feab5fd5-59f3-4766-9ab0-8865ab9d825f/downloads/1blqg2t2v_885681.pdf
I think this is the root of the problem, one I worked to address with the 91...I couldn't cut the air enough so that I could slow down the rate of gassing, or even stall the cat if I had desired. This made for several cases of soiled undershorts, when the cat temp kept rising past 1800, even with the air cut as far as I could. One potential problem area is the ash pan gasket...you have to have a good seal there or you can see the coals glowing over the ash dump lid, signalling that you have air coming into the box there. The other tweak to be done is to get the air control plates to seal off more tightly when fully closed.
Right, that's exactly what would happen to me. I'd have the stove up to temp, bypass closed, cat temp looking good at 1200 or 1400...then later as more wood got to coaling and gassing, the cat temp would go higher than I wanted. It wouldn't happen right away after I closed the bypass. I don't think bark on the splits is a problem, it's just that we can't cut the air as much as we would like so that we would have total control over the burn and the cat temp. I don't think you'll hurt the stove by the cat temp going high, other than damaging the cat, as you said. I think that the "overfire" they are referring to in the manual would be with the air wide open, either with the bypass open or closed. With the bypass open, and a roaring fire in the box, you can glow the liner red and eventually damage it. You might also get the area around the bypass opening glowing red, which you wouldn't want. With a roaring blaze in the box and the bypass closed, you could possibly get flame impingement damage to the cat (flame directly hitting the face of the cat.) But I had some pretty lively flames going at times with the bypass closed...I could see by looking just above the heat shield that the flames weren't getting close to hitting the face of the cat so I think flame impingement damage would be hard to do with the 91.

Crater, I know exactly what you mean about "loving the big hunk of steel." Even when I was fighting to get more control of the air by doing various tweaks, I was still mighty fond of that sweet machine...620 lbs. of bad-arse stove.
It's a shame I never got to implement the final tweak, which I think would have given me total control; Bending the right slider rod up slightly, as I described above. That stove would be one sweet rig if a guy had total control. And I bet you would gain a few hours burn time in the bargain. I'd almost be tempted to come over there and have a shot at your 91, just to see if that final tweak would give us the level of control and the ease of operation that we've been seeking. But dammit man, that's a long haul from here over to where you are..like half a day's drive!

Thanks Woody. I weigh in at 120lbs (holding a load of wood) so I should have no problem picking this up and putting it in the back of my SUV and driving down your way. LOL...I always thought if a guy was retired and loved to travel, he good make some good side money doing what you said.......

Also glad to know that I am not totally a wuss about this.....

Thanks again guys

 

[bholler]

Thanks Woody. I weigh in at 120lbs (holding a load of wood) so I should have no problem picking this up and putting it in the back of my SUV and driving down your way. LOL...I always thought if a guy was retired and loved to travel, he good make some good side money doing what you said.......

Also glad to know that I am not totally a wuss about this.....

Thanks again guys

You do realize there are people who m aske a living helping people get their systems running right dont you? Have you had a pro out to help diagnose the issue?

When you shut it all the way and had back puffs how long did you take to shut it down? Did the puffing go away or continue?