Problem with Chimney/Mantel. What to do?

[Henry G]

I'm not currently living in the house right now, but plan to move in fairly soon. It had a old pellet stove that I pulled out, and sold. I recently had my chimney cleaned, and was told it looked really good. In the meantime I installed a cricket on the roof because some of the original flashing didn't look that great. It appeared that some water may have gotten down into the wall.

Long story short, I ripped up all the lath/plaster/drywall to reveal that water had been dripping back behind the wall and rotted out some of the framing. Aside from repairing the framing, I also have two problems I need to figure out.

1. Behind the mantel there was a 2x4 that ran the length of the mantel under all the studs. This was beyond rotten, and was removed. Is it possible to fill this void with some kind of cement before repairing the framing? It appears the mantel was built around this when the house was built (1915-ish).

Here is a photo of the brick that was under the mantel. You can see the void behind the bricks where the 2x4 was placed. It was removed before I took the photo.

Opening up a can of worms... haha

2. My other problem is when they cleaned the chimney, they also removed some of the misc parts that were left behind from the pellet stove install. When they did this they had to pull down a brick or two. The problem now is under that 2x4 that was rotted, I can now see a small hole which leads into the "firebox?" area itself. The water over time must have damaged the mortar enough that when they pulled out the pellet stove parts it must have let loose. How should I go about repairing this?

Sorry for the long post, but this forum has been more than helpful in the past. Thanks in advance!

 

[fossil]

Pics aren't showing up, Henry...says "moved or deleted". Rick

 

[Henry G]

Fossil, thanks. I rechecked the tags, and it should be working now.

 

[begreen]

That fireplace has more problems with wood right up against the brick. I would be less than comfortable burning in it until discussed with a good professional mason.

What are the future plans for the fireplace?

 

[Henry G]

The wood against the brick is a problem? I've seen this more often than not when repairing, or replacing drywall in a living room with a fireplace.

I'm going to move my Jotul into this fireplace after I do the necessary repairs. I will run a steel liner as well.

 

[tiber]

Does it have a clay liner?

 

[Fsappo]

Shouldnt have the brick from the chimney right up against the studs. Also, the chimney on the right looks like it has black "something" running down it. It may be a sign of creosote working its way thru. I know there are millions of pre nfpa211 homes that had masonry installed like yours and they have been around for 100 years with no problem. It only takes one problem though. If it was me, I would either pull the chimney down and replace it with class A to install your Jotul, or at the least make sure the liner I used was insulated.

 

[Michael6268]

Most codes require 2" min between chimney brick and studs/combustibles.

 

[Fsappo]

NFPA 211 states 2" clearance on interior chimneys and 1" on exterior. In this case it looks like he has zero. I'd like to see a photo of the outside of the chimney.

 

[Henry G]

Does it have a clay liner?

It doesn't.

 

[Henry G]

Shouldnt have the brick from the chimney right up against the studs. Also, the chimney on the right looks like it has black "something" running down it. It may be a sign of creosote working its way thru. I know there are millions of pre nfpa211 homes that had masonry installed like yours and they have been around for 100 years with no problem. It only takes one problem though. If it was me, I would either pull the chimney down and replace it with class A to install your Jotul, or at the least make sure the liner I used was insulated.

I didn't have any light on when I took these photos. The buildup on the right looked to be deposits from the water that dripped down over time.

A good portion of the chimney on the outside was rebuilt at some point. I've only had this house for a little over a year, so I don't know for sure, but it's obvious when you look close enough to see the subtle differences in the brick. Taking down the chimney right not is not an option for me.

When you suggest am insulated liner, are you referring to a double walled piping? Sorry, I don't know all of the terminology yet. The plan was to run piping inside the chimney.

 

[Fsappo]

Your sweep looked at your unlined chimney that no doubt is probably right up along the outside of your home with no clearance and said it looked great? Aside from the fireplace I would make sure any other appliances in the basement that may be hooked to that chimney are inspected and the chimney modified accordingly.

 

[Henry G]

NFPA 211 states 2" clearance on interior chimneys and 1" on exterior. In this case it looks like he has zero. I'd like to see a photo of the outside of the chimney.

This is an exterior chimney.

I'm not home at the moment, so this is the best I could do about a photo of the outside. As you can see the old cap was removed, and a new one will be installed soon.

 

[Henry G]

Your sweep looked at your unlined chimney that no doubt is probably right up along the outside of your home with no clearance and said it looked great? Aside from the fireplace I would make sure any other appliances in the basement that may be hooked to that chimney are inspected and the chimney modified accordingly.

He knew that I was going to be running an insert, install a new cap and run piping in the chimney.

Nothing else uses the chimney. The previous owner had a pellet stove connected to some flex pipe that run up the chimney. It look like they removed a few bricks from inside the "firebox?" to accommodate the large stove. What I'd like to do is make the necessary repairs to make my situation as safe as possible using what I currently have.

 

[tiber]

The missing clay liner is a dead stop. You can't possibly run it safely as a fireplace without the liner, I'm really sorry to say. The liner is what gives you fire protection and some R value in the assembly.

Unfortunately the law is when you're refurbishing something like this you have to bring it up to code, but this is a good idea anyway. I have no idea what the fire code was in 1915 but in terms of what you can do with it - what you have is a chase. It's a place you could install a fireplace into or a woodstove into and it would cover up the class A pipe. As a fireplace by itself, it may have originally been built as a fireplace but it's not usuable as a fireplace for any application here. I'm not sure what's behind the bucket, but if the pellet stove were vented out the back, this was actually an OK installation for the stove and that may be what your sweep was commenting on.

EDIT: I see you mentioned the flexipipe up the chase, this is probably OK for a pellet stove since their venting requirements are minimal.

 

[Fsappo]

Hard to see, but it seems like that brick is smack dab right up against the house. Like I said, theres a million old homes built that way. The minimum you should do is use a wrapped insulated liner for your insert. What else is connected to that chimney? Anything in the basement?

 

[begreen]

From the data provided, this chimney/fireplace appears to be a time-bomb. It's good that you are taking the time to assess and remedy the issues. The firebox is compromised, there can be no openings between the facebrick and the firebox. Get that repaired. The flue is unlined and risks are further exacerbated by the entire assembly being in contact with wood. It must have a good, insulated liner to remedy this problem.

 

[Henry G]

The missing clay liner is a dead stop. You can't possibly run it safely as a fireplace without the liner, I'm really sorry to say. The liner is what gives you fire protection and some R value in the assembly.

Unfortunately the law is when you're refurbishing something like this you have to bring it up to code, but this is a good idea anyway. I have no idea what the fire code was in 1915 but in terms of what you can do with it - what you have is a chase. It's a place you could install a fireplace into or a woodstove into and it would cover up the class A pipe. As a fireplace by itself, it may have originally been built as a fireplace but it's not usuable as a fireplace for any application here. I'm not sure what's behind the bucket, but if the pellet stove were vented out the back, this was actually an OK installation for the stove and that may be what your sweep was commenting on.

EDIT: I see you mentioned the flexipipe up the chase, this is probably OK for a pellet stove since their venting requirements are minimal.

As for the firecode in 1915, I would assume there wasn't one. ;P

Just to clarify, there are no plans to use this as a bare fireplace.

 

[Henry G]

Hard to see, but it seems like that brick is smack dab right up against the house. Like I said, theres a million old homes built that way. The minimum you should do is use a wrapped insulated liner for your insert. What else is connected to that chimney? Anything in the basement?

Against the house as in the siding meets the brick? If so, then yes it is. Although there may be flashing that is actually touching the brick.

When you mentioned a wrapped insulated liner, would this be the piping I was referring to?

Nothing else is using this chimney, and no I don't have a basement.

 

[Henry G]

From the data provided, this chimney/fireplace appears to be a time-bomb. It's good that you are taking the time to assess and remedy the issues. The firebox is compromised, there can be no openings between the facebrick and the firebox. Get that repaired. The flue is unlined and risks are further exacerbated by the entire assembly being in contact with wood. It must have a good, insulated liner to remedy this problem.

A clay liner is obviously not something I could possibly add at this point, correct?

As for the repairs this is what I'm trying to learn more about. I wouldn't be against having a professional handle this, but I'd like to know more about it when I talk to someone and when they are doing the work. I would guess that someone couldn't use just any kind of cement mix to repair old brick like this. I'm assuming you'd use something like portland cement with a sand mix? Again, I'm not very knowledgeable about this as you can see.

I do appreciate all the advice so far. If the budget were to allow it, I would just have the chimney rebuilt.

 

[Henry G]

From the data provided, this chimney/fireplace appears to be a time-bomb. It's good that you are taking the time to assess and remedy the issues. The firebox is compromised, there can be no openings between the facebrick and the firebox. Get that repaired. The flue is unlined and risks are further exacerbated by the entire assembly being in contact with wood. It must have a good, insulated liner to remedy this problem.

Is there anything I can do to make this situation any safer with the studs? They aren't exactly touching the wood, but I would guess there isn't more than an inch of space between the brick and stud. Should something be put in between the brick and wood?

 

[tiber]

The "fix", to make this usuable, is to run class A pipe up there and treat it as a chase. At this point it simply covers up the class A pipe and you can hook anything you want to that pipe without fear of having to make Ye Olde Indoor Burning Code of 1915 meet international fire code. If you can cram an 8" class A pipe up there, you can buy basically any woodstove or insert, slap a firescreen on that puppy and run it either as an open fireplace or a stove.

 

[Henry G]

The "fix", to make this usuable, is to run class A pipe up there and treat it as a chase. At this point it simply covers up the class A pipe and you can hook anything you want to that pipe without fear of having to make Ye Olde Indoor Burning Code of 1915 meet international fire code. If you can cram an 8" class A pipe up there, you can buy basically any woodstove or insert, slap a firescreen on that puppy and run it either as an open fireplace or a stove.

I believe my Jotul is only has a 6in opening. Shouldn't I only stick with 6in piping?

I need to do a bit more research, but I did see that home depot sells some kind of piping, but it appeared to only be a single wall pipe. Can you guys recommend someone online that sells calss A piping? Preferably a board sponsor.

 

[begreen]

I'm not sure class A pipe will even fit down the chimney. Do you have the flue throat dimensions for the chimney? For this project to keep it within reason, I think a proper insulated liner will suffice. This together with the masonry repairs and the sealed box of the insert should be a 1000% improvement over the current setup.

 

[tiber]

ah yes I see that. No the jotul C350 is one of the ones which doesn't have a 8" flue option for the firescreen - you are correct. Stick with 6".

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