putting bug repellants on wood pile

[LONDONDERRY]

Good info, thanks guys.


LONDONDERRY, I have no interest in dumping a bunch of chemicals on my wood before burning it. But, if I can throw a little boric acid around the house and wood pile and kill remove termites and carpenter ants, I'll certainly give it a try for the preservation of my house.

I do the same around my house because we live in an area with lots of down trees which draw in carpenter ants. I did alot of research on this and as your probably aware unless you kill off the queen ant the colony will still live. I did the Bug-be-Gone sprays and Spectracides and it works for 1-2 weeks then the ants are back. You have to buy a bait product and unless it says it on the package its not a bait. I used Amdro. Its expensive compared to other products $23.00 but it worked. Borax which is boric acid is a dehydrater, they don't eat it or pass it along to the queen. They get covered in it and the moisture is wicked from their bodies

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Borax and boric acid aren't the same thing. Boric acid is more effective for these purposes- it acts as a poison

 

[iceman]

everyone says no like most say no to burning pine.....
but what does ant dust...or some other stuff do to wood that hurts its output or your stove.....
if your wood sits for 6 months or more won't it rinse away or eventually break down.... most stuff says it will work for like 4 months so if you burn later than that whats the problem...... just thinking about all the bugs in my pile today

Let me ask you a question first. Would you burn pressure treated wood to heat you home?

The question to ask is not if I should place insect repellants on firewood or not. The question to ask is how hazardous is it to burn chemically treated wood? For your sake and possibly your families, I would consult with the MSDS data sheets of the products you buy. I would not rely on anyone telling me regardless if they work at the store you buy them or anyone on this forum saying ..."ya go for it" unless you read the MSDS or call the manufacture beforehand.


Regards
Frank

thats what i mean this stuff should wash away.......and as the wood dries it shouldn't absorb it...and if it did its in a stove.... the damage i am more afraid of is to the stove and pipe

 

[elmoleaf]

I don't have time or energy to worry about bugs in the outside woodpile.
They're gone by the time I bring it in to burn.
I'd be worried about screwing up my catalytic combustor by burning anything treated with bug killer etc. anyway.

 

[LONDONDERRY]

thats what i mean this stuff should wash away.......and as the wood dries it shouldn't absorb it...and if it did its in a stove.... the damage i am more afraid of is to the stove and pipe[/quote]


A quick experiment would be to dilute what every you are going to use, apply it on a medium, let it dry and see if its absorbed or not. Unless you know for a fact that smoke/ fumes from burning chemical insecticides are harmless to you or your families health I would be not do it. I would care more about what harn I'd be doing to myself or other before a wood stove, but thats my opinion.


Frank

 

[Bill]

I don't know where to start and respond. First off MSDS sheets are mostly for safety in handling, exposure, and flash-point etc. I suggest you read the label, that's where the pertinent information on how to use a product safely. I have read some very bad information on this thread and hope I can clear some misconceptions up. Diatomaceous Earth is extremely dangerous to breath, so the person vacuuming your rug, you are dispersing this dust into the air. Very dangerous to do. The next person spraying your wood with Malathion, when you burn your wood it smells like skunk piss. There is very little reason to treat firewood in most cases. Half life on a pesticide and how long it can persist if absorbed in firewood may be longer than one season.

I would say spray wood as a last resort and diatomateous earth for outdoor use is worthless. The lowest mamalary toxicity is found in pryethrins (synthetic pyrethoids) they kill on contact with no residual, so they have no half life.

The ideal Integrated Pest Management approach would be to put your ant infested wood in the fire-pit and get rid of it. Dry split wood is not to attractive to many pests. Sure you can bring in an occasional bee, or spider, or in my case a wood roach. But it's not really that big of a deal. So the indiscriminate use of pesticides and the fumes from burning pesticide treated wood is not in any-ones best interest. The EPA does not test burning pesticide treated wood and who knows what carcinogens or toxins it produces.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

"Diatomaceous Earth is extremely dangerous to breath"

I think that you are overstating this quite a bit, as well as not looking at the differences between calcined and non-calcined DE. Go ahead and follow all precautions on all MSDS's and the CYA statements on packaging- you will quickly need a respirator, goggles, and gloves before you walk into your own kitchen- LOL

I'll add that nobody was suggesting dumping it on the rug.

I agree that just drying firewood is the best route to reducing pests. I have never treated my wood piles with anything, but then I'm not squeamish about bugs in the least, and I don't live in a high-termite area.

I'm curious also why you state that DE is ineffective outside? It works by abrasion as well as absorbing certain compounds from exoskeletons which then enables dessication. If it doesn't wash away, then it's effective in a small area- like a covered woodpile with a resident population of something nasty.

 

[termv]

Food grade DE is as dangerous as talc powder. I hope you wear your respirator in the bathroom too!

 

[Bill]

Powders are poor choices for outside treatments because of rain, moisture, and wind. The MSDA sheet recommends wearing a respirator when using, also it's not to come in contact with skin. Where the big confusion occurs is the Ld50 is extremely high (extremely low in mamalary toxicity) , but lets not confuse this with De's hazard. Baby powder can be a hazard with prolonged use also. Anything you inhale can affect your lungs, it may take years, but I am just pointing out some concerns.

 

[PeteD]

Food grade DE is as dangerous as talc powder. I hope you wear your respirator in the bathroom too!

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/6/1058

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I would err on the side of caution and never spray wood to be burned with pesticides, nor would I burn treated wood. Nasty by-products can and do result.

Pete

 

[Adios Pantalones]

"Anything you inhale can affect your lungs, it may take years, but I am just pointing out some concerns"

Right- which is really a concern in an enclosed environment- as in "indoors". Sweeping your floor indoors is more a concern than using DE outdoors.

As for its effectiveness outdoors- it is not soluble in water (not effected by humidity), will only be somewhat dispersed by rain (not really a concern for direct application on a covered pile). Others' suggestions about putting a line of material down around a pile seem less effective, and wind may or may not be an issue. If I had a serious infestation, I'd throw some down every few courses of wood and wind/rain/etc would be of little concern.

I've used it outdoors for otyher applications with apparent effect (around my foundation- had ants etc trying to get into my log home), though this was no controled study. The material was still visible on my foundation for months.

 

[termv]

Powders are poor choices for outside treatments because of rain, moisture, and wind. The MSDA sheet recommends wearing a respirator when using, also it's not to come in contact with skin. Where the big confusion occurs is the Ld50 is extremely high (extremely low in mamalary toxicity) , but lets not confuse this with De's hazard. Baby powder can be a hazard with prolonged use also. Anything you inhale can affect your lungs, it may take years, but I am just pointing out some concerns.

Given the choice between a nontoxic mechancial killer or a chemical insecticide, I'll take food grade DE. Its not to say that years from now they' might not find cases of it causing lung cancer but ...

 

[savageactor7]

God made all those bugs for a specific reason...I say let 'em be.

Now if they're termites sure call a professional cause your house is an investment that you have to protect.

But when you start spraying here and there that affects children and the whole cycle of life...you really have to be careful with pesticides...how many of ya have seen beautiful birds on top of your woodpile pecking at those bugs? What about their babies? If your up north bugs in your wood pile don't mean jack. Down south...I dunno.

 

[RedRanger]

God made all those bugs for a specific reason...I say let 'em be.

Now if they're termites sure call a professional cause your house is an investment that you have to protect.

But when you start spraying here and there that affects children and the whole cycle of life...you really have to be careful with pesticides...how many of ya have seen beautiful birds on top of your woodpile pecking at those bugs? What about their babies? If your up north bugs in your wood pile don't mean jack. Down south...I dunno.

Exactly! And like I stated in an earlier post, lots of spiders to take care of those nasties. Kill the bugs and ya kill the spiders.. What?? You all afraid of spiders? Well that is too bad for you,cause those spiders, specially the jumpers love the wood piles. Tonnes of them in my wood,specially the jumpers, lots and lots of them. They don`t bother me at all, cause I know they are just doing their job.

 

[colsmith]

The government keeps close tabs on this stuff and as a matter of fact these companies can only produce a certain type of chemical for a few years then by law it must be changed. Thats why the good chemicals like diazanon can not be found anymore.

If only what this fellow said was true. The EPA, especially in the George W. years, hasn't given much of a hoot about protecting the environment. Pesticides do not have to be tested by the EPA or the government at all, they generally rely on very minimal testing done by the company producing the pesticide. I was just reading in this week's Los Angeles Times how the latest theory on the massive bee die-offs in recent years is that it is the pesticide applied to corn and other seeds that is killing them off in massive quantities. The pesticide applied to the seed actually carries over to the plant. The bee picks it up in the pollen. Very tiny quantity, but bees are very sensitive to chemicals. They have tested the pollen and can measure the pesticide there that was only applied to the SEED. So if you think applying pesticides to your wood will have no effect on your or the environment, well, I can't stop you from thinking that, but it just ain't so. Just because you don't drop dead doesn't mean you aren't poisoning the environment in ways you don't notice. And to the fellow who is confident putting the stuff on his porch, well, I think he is foolish. Remember that kids and pets are more susceptible to this stuff than grownups, too.

 

[glenng]

I stack my wood in a long single row. It dries quickly and I am also able to walk along its length with my leaf blower to blow out dirt,dust and whatever. I have no bug problems. The world needs less poison. To put poison on firewood just makes no sense when there are so many other ways to achieve your bug free goal.

 

[Bill]

Powders are poor choices for outside treatments because of rain, moisture, and wind. The MSDA sheet recommends wearing a respirator when using, also it's not to come in contact with skin. Where the big confusion occurs is the Ld50 is extremely high (extremely low in mamalary toxicity) , but lets not confuse this with De's hazard. Baby powder can be a hazard with prolonged use also. Anything you inhale can affect your lungs, it may take years, but I am just pointing out some concerns.

Given the choice between a nontoxic mechanical killer or a chemical insecticide, I'll take food grade DE. Its not to say that years from now they might not find cases of it causing lung cancer but ...

De is not a mechanical killer and its NOT nontoxic, it's being used as a pesticide which it kills. It's also a known carcinogen. You need to differentiate between scientific evidence and emotion.

The EPA has stringent requirements on pesticides and the testing is extremely expensive, it cost millions of dollars to get the EPA approval.

The theory on the honey bee die off could be linked to a miteacide used in the hives. But know-one is sure at this point.

I also farm and have corn planted and there are no pesticides on my seeds.

Let me just ad that I am a Pest Management Professional for over 30 years, so homeowners testimonial's do not hold any scientific acceptance with me. So some of the uneducated information I read about pesticides is pure speculation and I will not comment any further.

 

[Jay777]

De is not a mechanical killer and its NOT nontoxic, it's being used as a pesticide which it kills. It's also a known carcinogen. You need to differentiate between scientific evidence and emotion.

Huh? It's reguarly added to grain in storage. Some people eat it as a homeopathic supplement.

What aspect of it is toxic? That is, what's the chemical compound that kills pests (or people)? And can you please cite the study where it's found to be a carcinogen when ingested?

 

[Adios Pantalones]

"Let me just ad that I am a Pest Management Professional for over 30 years, so homeowners testimonial’s do not hold any scientific acceptance with me."

Are you suggesting that you are above conversation on the matter? I haven't pulled out my qualifications here because it would be lame to dismiss others out of hand based on my degree.

DE is composed of the bodies of microscopic sea critters that build up into a solid that is ground for use. DE works by either absorbing lipids from the insect's exoskeleton, or by mechanical means that abrade openings in the exoskeleton- both of which allow for dessication. Ingestion by the insect may also result in internal injury (speculated) resulting in death. It does NOT work by some other toxic effect commonly associated with "chemical" ingestion- acetylcholine receptor targeting etc.

In fact- added to animal food to kill pests in the supply, it causes no injury at all when they injest it.

It is NOT the same thing as calcined DE used in pools, and has different health concerns- it is mostly amorphous silica rather than free crystaline silica.

As we discussed above- prolonged breathing of it, and prolonged use in an enclosed space (indoors) is inadvisable and could lead to silicosis long-term. Using some on the woodpile is not an issue unless you do it continually and breathe the material on a weekly basis or more.

Any particle in the 1-10 micron size range may be respirated. A 4 micron particle is the ideal size to stick in your lung- someone making a biological weapon targets that size range for that reason (ask me how I know that ). Anything that size that you breathe in may stick in your lungs and be an issue- thus my comment about sweeping your floor indoors. Guess what happens when the wind blows? You get a lungfull of yumminess outdoors.


"You need to differentiate between scientific evidence and emotion. "

Indeed.

 

[jadm]

God made all those bugs for a specific reason...I say let 'em be.

Now if they're termites sure call a professional cause your house is an investment that you have to protect.

But when you start spraying here and there that affects children and the whole cycle of life...you really have to be careful with pesticides...how many of ya have seen beautiful birds on top of your woodpile pecking at those bugs? What about their babies? If your up north bugs in your wood pile don't mean jack. Down south...I dunno.

I have only been burning for 4 winters but in all that time have had no bug problems in the house. Growing up we burned wood in our mountain cabin and that wood sat out all the time for long periods of time and we still had no bug problems in the cabin.

Our climate is dry and there are bugs in there but as others have said - they either leave or die off before winter. Or they get eaten by the birds etc..

The danger of chemicals etc. is that they don't discriminate between good and bad. You are essentially killing everything that crawls and then some. There goes the balance of nature that is designed to keep a balance...

When carrying wood in we give it a few good knocks to knock off any bugs - mostly spiders here - before bringing it in. I store about 3 - 4 days worth of wood in the house when it is really cold and snowy out otherwise I keep about 2 days worth inside - right by our insert where it is warm. We have hard wood floors and lots of wood all around and no problem.

I try to save money and I try to help keep Mother Earth clean for the next generation...

 

[Jay777]

Here's a hazard datasheet on DE...

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/d1288.htm

Inhalation bad, ingestion just fine. I'm pretty sure most toxic pesticides don't state "No adverse effects expected" from ingestion.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

That's calcined DE, as in pool material, which is up to 75% crystaline silica. Food grade DE is more like 6-7% crystaline silica. They'll still put an inhalation warning on it for that level- but it's a very different material.

 

[Jay777]

That's calcined DE, as in pool material, which is up to 75% crystaline silica. Food grade DE is more like 6-7% crystaline silica. They'll still put an inhalation warning on it for that level- but it's a very different material.

Even better Thanks for the clarification.

 

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Real new here though not to forums. I've a bit of biology background myself agree with Adios here...

DE is composed of the bodies of microscopic sea critters that build up into a solid that is ground for use. DE works by either absorbing lipids from the insect’s exoskeleton, or by mechanical means that abrade openings in the exoskeleton- both of which allow for dessication. Ingestion by the insect may also result in internal injury (speculated) resulting in death. It does NOT work by some other toxic effect commonly associated with “chemical” ingestion- acetylcholine receptor targeting et

There are many forms and uses for DE , the least toxic is the food grade one.... and yes... as a dust its not the best thing to breath in....but neither is saw dust....or any other particulates....

The best way to use a powder like DE is a ground dust along the trails that a bug like an ant would use...it picks up the dust on its feet, and it and other ants ingest it when cleaning ....they then die....Its not likely to have any effect on termites though ....as these don't forage....they stay largely inside wood and spreadmostly where wood to wood contact is though they can chew thru non-wood.....or when the males and females fly from the nest ...this swarming usually happens in the spring. You don't see termites wandering about otherwise.

The additional downside to using a dust is most critter hide under the bark...dusts won't penetrate..there well..

My take on "putting Bug Repellents " or pesticides on firewood is its useless at best and depending what you use... Downright risky and dangerous at worst.

Your best bet is to minimize the insect problem in the first place.. thoroughly dry and season the wood... less chance of critters......especially termites which tend to like areas with some moisture... Luckily they like hardwoods least of the woods.....

Store the wood off the ground...airflow is critical.

If you are really concerned with critters in the wood...switch to a non-cord wood...like Biobricks.....but if you prefer cordwood... I think a few bugs here and there aren't much of a risk, and I definetly think treating for them with a pesticide on the wood is not wise, nor is it effective, IMO.

Hth,
al

ps... haven't tried the sonic pest repellents yet...but these may offer some protection and be worth trying if its a major concern.

 

[Highbeam]

I don't know about you folks but I like to cut a tree and get it stacked and drying pretty quickly. I stack green wood and let it dry all summer. These stacks of green wood are not dry or seasoned but are drying and seasoning throughout the summer. It is during this drying period that bug control is important. I will have a zillion little bugs flying on and around the pile until it is dry. By the time winter rolls around, the flies are dead and the pile is dry. I spray the pile to control these flyers on green wood. A bonus is that the same chemical kills all sorts of other animals.

I did get some bugs on my dry winter wood this year though, little black crawlers maybe 1/4" long.