question about cat operation

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rjr240

New Member
Jan 23, 2011
9
straits area MI
Hi I am new here and contemplating replacing my older Cat stove. I have not been impressed with the non- cat EPA stoves as I like a long burn time. I am trying to understand exactly what a Cat does. QUESTION: When you engage the catalytic on a hot stove/flue - Is it the action of restriction that holds the heat in the firebox, extends burn time, raises the efficiency and keeps all your fuel from running up the chimney? Similar to engaging a damper on a older stove.
I understand that the cat raises exhaust temps to lower emmisions similar to a catalytic converter in a automobile . It surely also would keep the chimney cleaner.
But does it really do anything for the fire other than what a well tuned damper/ restrictor would do? Are there other physics involved?
 
The cat does act kind a like a damper inside the stove which slows down the fire but it also burns all that smoke at a lower fire box temp than non cats so cats require less air and inturn burn longer.
 
Thanks Todd- something to ponder-
When you say " less air required to burn off all that smoke " is it an environmental thing, (a good thing)? or does the extra draw created by the cat overcome what a damper would do and allow the fire to be more feathered ( choked down)
 
The Cat allows you to damper down the fire by burning the smoke as it passes through it. This creates extra heat instead of sending up the flue, keeps your flue cleaner, and extends burn times.
 
rjr240 said:
Hi I am new here and contemplating replacing my older Cat stove. I have not been impressed with the non- cat EPA stoves as I like a long burn time. I am trying to understand exactly what a Cat does. QUESTION: When you engage the catalytic on a hot stove/flue - Is it the action of restriction that holds the heat in the firebox, extends burn time, raises the efficiency and keeps all your fuel from running up the chimney? Similar to engaging a damper on a older stove.
I understand that the cat raises exhaust temps to lower emmisions similar to a catalytic converter in a automobile . It surely also would keep the chimney cleaner.
But does it really do anything for the fire other than what a well tuned damper/ restrictor would do? Are there other physics involved?

This is a very informative article about cats..

http://www.chimneysweepnews.com/Combustors.htm

Ray
 
rjr240 said:
Hi I am new here and contemplating replacing my older Cat stove. I have not been impressed with the non- cat EPA stoves as I like a long burn time. I am trying to understand exactly what a Cat does. QUESTION: When you engage the catalytic on a hot stove/flue - Is it the action of restriction that holds the heat in the firebox, extends burn time, raises the efficiency and keeps all your fuel from running up the chimney? Similar to engaging a damper on a older stove.
I understand that the cat raises exhaust temps to lower emmisions similar to a catalytic converter in a automobile . It surely also would keep the chimney cleaner.
But does it really do anything for the fire other than what a well tuned damper/ restrictor would do? Are there other physics involved?


Welcome to the forum rjr240, and fellow Michigander.

It would be good if you could look at the insides of some of the cat stoves to get an idea of why they work so good at producing good usable heat from the smoke. In our stove, we can raise the top lid and see the cat and can also see the bypass. There is a large area there and that gets really hot because of the cat.

When we engage the cat, the stove needs very little air. Naturally, how much air you give depends upon how much heat you want. On our draft control, it goes from 0-4. When we engage cat, most times we have the draft set below 1, or at .75. There have been times when we had the draft set at zero. Most times we have fire in the firebox but not always. There are times when we turn the draft down and there may even be no visible coals, yet the stove top temperature can be 600 degrees or more. Naturally, this will extend the burn time.

Your last question: It does much more than a well tuned damper because it burns the smoke!

But I think what you really want to know is what the benefits are of the cat stoves. For me, it is using less wood to get more heat. It is not having to clean the chimney very often. We used to clean our chimney 3-4 times per winter and now we are into our 4th year with this stove and have cleaned it only one time and then got very little soot (about a cup full). So clean burning, less fuel and we get more heat than we ever did with the old stove.
 
This was taken from the article Ray suggested:

How a Combustor Functions

A combustor is usually made of ceramic or stainless steel with a wash coat of catalyst such as platinum or palladium applied.

During the initial firing of a catalytic woodstove, a by-pass, designed in the stove to allow gases to exit the stove without being forced through a combustor, is left in the open position.

The actual amount of time required for a combustor to become active varies based on stove design and combustor design. The total start-up time is based on thermal mass and conductivity of the substrate. As a rule of thumb, stainless steel combustors, which have thinner cell walls, become active more quickly and require less by-pass time.

After the by-pass mechanism is closed, smoke and gases are forced through the combustor.

Combustible gases in wood smoke are ignited as they pass through the cells of a catalytic combustor.

Wood smoke requires high temperatures to be consumed and there is a great deal of energy to be harvested in wood smoke. An active combustor greatly reduces and concentrates the temperatures needed to process and harvest wood smoke gases. It can burn smoke with lower firebox temperatures. This is a critical point.

In some non-catalytic wood stoves, very high temperatures are used and larger amounts of steel or stainless steel components are exposed to this excessive heat. Over time, much like a combustor, these steel components may require replacement to keep the stove functioning correctly and to keep it within EPA emission requirements for non-catalytic stoves. Most manufacturers design these parts, like the combustors, to be removed for replacement when needed.

As the gases pass through a combustor, the active temperature and total surface area burn these gases and return them as energy to heat the given living area. Most gases commonly considered to be harmful to the environment are burned within the combustor. Most encouraging is that a catalytic woodstove can in fact remove up to 65% of methane gases, something non-catalytic stoves have not established.

Properly functioning catalytic combustors destroy a large percentage of air toxics emitted during the combustion of wood.

Combustors can destroy up to 90% of the creosote associated with wood combustion and remove 90% or more of the harmful pollutants found in wood smoke. What a combustor can not do is tolerate ongoing or constant misuse or abuse. Catalytic wood stove manufacturers should always encourage stove purchasers to burn only well seasoned cord wood. Wet or green wood should not ever be burned in any wood stove, regardless of design. Affordable moisture meters are accurate enough to educate consumers as to the moisture content of the fuel they wish to burn.

Although a combustor can process gases and chemicals such as formaldehyde, building materials, printed materials and other items with glues, adhesives and metals should not be burned in any stove. Unfortunately, repeated burning of such materials results in the release of these agents which can then over-plate or fill up the pores and surface areas of the catalyst coated combustor; eventually leading to the combustor becoming plugged. These are not proven to be destroyed in the combustion of a non-catalytic stove and go up the stack.

To be certain, any individual who burns materials other than recognized fuels, i.e. cordwood or approved manufactured logs, in a catalytic wood stove for any period of time can shorten the lifespan of the combustor. These folks are quick to learn about proper burn techniques, especially since their stove will not function as well as when first purchased. Essentially, catalytic woodstoves discourage individuals from burning anything other than good quality fuel. Today when individuals purchase a catalytic woodstove they know about the level of commitment they will have to make to their burn habits, use and maintenance. Catalytic woodstove purchasers invest more money in a catalytic woodstove so as to receive maximum efficiency and clean burning, just as owners of quality made, more costly vehicles tend to take better care of their vehicles.

Today, catalytic woodstove owners know it is far less costly to replace a combustor than it is to purchase an additional 10-30% more cordwood each year.

Recently, Applied Ceramics, a leading combustor manufacturer, performed a comparison of the performance at different burn rates of various stove designs. We were told by Applied Ceramics that various manufacturers were contacted by Applied Ceramics and asked to supply burn data for their products. Data provided by both catalytic woodstove and non-catalytic woodstove manufacturers showed that catalytic woodstoves had exceptional performance numbers.
 
VCBurner said:
This was taken from the article Ray suggested:

How a Combustor Functions

A combustor is usually made of ceramic or stainless steel with a wash coat of catalyst such as platinum or palladium applied.

During the initial firing of a catalytic woodstove, a by-pass, designed in the stove to allow gases to exit the stove without being forced through a combustor, is left in the open position.

The actual amount of time required for a combustor to become active varies based on stove design and combustor design. The total start-up time is based on thermal mass and conductivity of the substrate. As a rule of thumb, stainless steel combustors, which have thinner cell walls, become active more quickly and require less by-pass time.

After the by-pass mechanism is closed, smoke and gases are forced through the combustor.

Combustible gases in wood smoke are ignited as they pass through the cells of a catalytic combustor.

Wood smoke requires high temperatures to be consumed and there is a great deal of energy to be harvested in wood smoke. An active combustor greatly reduces and concentrates the temperatures needed to process and harvest wood smoke gases. It can burn smoke with lower firebox temperatures. This is a critical point.

In some non-catalytic wood stoves, very high temperatures are used and larger amounts of steel or stainless steel components are exposed to this excessive heat. Over time, much like a combustor, these steel components may require replacement to keep the stove functioning correctly and to keep it within EPA emission requirements for non-catalytic stoves. Most manufacturers design these parts, like the combustors, to be removed for replacement when needed.

As the gases pass through a combustor, the active temperature and total surface area burn these gases and return them as energy to heat the given living area. Most gases commonly considered to be harmful to the environment are burned within the combustor. Most encouraging is that a catalytic woodstove can in fact remove up to 65% of methane gases, something non-catalytic stoves have not established.

Properly functioning catalytic combustors destroy a large percentage of air toxics emitted during the combustion of wood.

Combustors can destroy up to 90% of the creosote associated with wood combustion and remove 90% or more of the harmful pollutants found in wood smoke. What a combustor can not do is tolerate ongoing or constant misuse or abuse. Catalytic wood stove manufacturers should always encourage stove purchasers to burn only well seasoned cord wood. Wet or green wood should not ever be burned in any wood stove, regardless of design. Affordable moisture meters are accurate enough to educate consumers as to the moisture content of the fuel they wish to burn.

Although a combustor can process gases and chemicals such as formaldehyde, building materials, printed materials and other items with glues, adhesives and metals should not be burned in any stove. Unfortunately, repeated burning of such materials results in the release of these agents which can then over-plate or fill up the pores and surface areas of the catalyst coated combustor; eventually leading to the combustor becoming plugged. These are not proven to be destroyed in the combustion of a non-catalytic stove and go up the stack.

To be certain, any individual who burns materials other than recognized fuels, i.e. cordwood or approved manufactured logs, in a catalytic wood stove for any period of time can shorten the lifespan of the combustor. These folks are quick to learn about proper burn techniques, especially since their stove will not function as well as when first purchased. Essentially, catalytic woodstoves discourage individuals from burning anything other than good quality fuel. Today when individuals purchase a catalytic woodstove they know about the level of commitment they will have to make to their burn habits, use and maintenance. Catalytic woodstove purchasers invest more money in a catalytic woodstove so as to receive maximum efficiency and clean burning, just as owners of quality made, more costly vehicles tend to take better care of their vehicles.

Today, catalytic woodstove owners know it is far less costly to replace a combustor than it is to purchase an additional 10-30% more cordwood each year.

Recently, Applied Ceramics, a leading combustor manufacturer, performed a comparison of the performance at different burn rates of various stove designs. We were told by Applied Ceramics that various manufacturers were contacted by Applied Ceramics and asked to supply burn data for their products. Data provided by both catalytic woodstove and non-catalytic woodstove manufacturers showed that catalytic woodstoves had exceptional performance numbers.

Thanx Chris!
I am a firm believer in cat stoves and also see merit in secondary burn depending on the type of heat demand one has to deal with.. I have only ever owned this one stove and know the ins and outs and whatever limitations it may have but overall I like it alot especially since I came here and smartened up to burning dry wood! Will I buy another cat stove, you bet I would! Generally for the climate I have here it does the job 99% of the time and is very frugal with wood consumed.. If I lived way up north in brutally cold conditions I think I would burn a Blaze King King as they crank up the BTU's and have a big firebox for long hot burns plus they are catalytic.. BTW speaking of catalysts I think you'll get that SS cat on Ebay for the opening price! I was considering "upgrading" this stove and right now I am having 2nd thoughts but I do need to upgrade my hearth no matter what I do stovewise..

Ray
 
VCBurner said:
Ray, since this is a cat threat, what other cat stoves would you consider?

Good question Chris! I think if I were in a colder climate the Blaze King is a worthy contender and I love the Woodstock Soapstones especially the new one that's a 2n1 unit.. The Vermont Castings stoves still scare me because of the refractory materials.. I have a real issue with stove endurance when it comes to refractory materials.. I would look for a stove with a cast iron interior or other durable protected interior.. Refractory materials are fine if they are not subject to damage as they are on so many stoves... I would have to reseacrh my options to further enhance this answer... Personally I like your stove as it appears to have the same endurance as mine with a few more user friendly features... You have refractory materials but they appear to be hidden from accidental breakage... I would not hesitate to buy your stove from a durability and reliability standpoint... I understand my stove but it would be a bear for a new user...

Ray
 
This site is so full of info it alone warms my heart . Thank you all so much. Interesting article by Blaze King. I am sure the Cat design is the answer for the way I burn 24/7 for 4-5 months a year. The reply from Michigander Dennis got my attention as he referred to a variable degree of engagment (dampening) on his woodstock . Hmmmm interesting . That is kind of the way I have been operating mine anyway. What I have is an earth stove 1003c , probably an older technology and the cat is not very efficient anymore. I guess I really just want to burn less wood. I really have to visit the fireplace shop and see what the new technology looks like. Randy
 
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