Questions on glowing secondaries, temp gauge placement and recent smoke back

[Bhowe007]

This year I started burning wood in a new Enviro 1700. My temp gauge placement is on the front top of the door. I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that this position reads lower temps then I would receive on the top of the insert.

Anyhow, I was hesitant to fire the stove at temps which made the secondary tubes glow. The few times they have, I get a sweet secondary burn and the temp gauge reads about 400-500 degrees. When this happens I can hear the stove expanding which also makes me a little worried that I'm overfiring.

The past couple weeks I've started to analyze how I'm burning the stove because I now have major problems with smoke back whenever I open the door. The screen on the top of the chimney cap and the bottom of the cap itself are blackened with tar and I'm wondering if this is due to the temps I'm burning at.

As I sit here now, I have three splits in a hot stove that has been burning all day and with the air wide open I'm unable to get the gauge above 400 degrees.

I installed the stove myself because I wanted to use a factory insulated double wall liner and couldn't find a dealer who was interested in putting it in. I'm using 17 ft of Simpson Duraliner (rigid, 6" double walled), 5 ft of flexible stainless to get through the throat of the chimney, Kaowool insulation at the top and the bottom, and a 45 degree stove pipe connector between the insert and the flexible stainless. Every connection has been sealed with stovepipe cement.

I think that I will quit burning the stove on tomorrow and clean the chimney on Sunday to see if that helps anything. Does anybody have any recommendations? Criticism and advice is appreciated.

Thank you in advance

 

[begreen]

The installation sounds great. A simple recommendation would be to try drier wood. It should make all the difference in the world.

 

[shawneyboy]

First thing I wondered was how seasoned and what species is the wood . Maybe be part/all of the problem, may be nothing. Usually lower temp, smokey fires with air wide open it is the wood. Also if you have access when the stove is cool check the air intake control, sometimes they bind/break and it may be closed even though you think it is open.

 

[Bhowe007]

I could see the wood being the problem, I'm not sure of the moisture content. My one problem is that the stove has burned great for the past 2 months and suddenly, over a weeks time, I've had problems.

 

[begreen]

Have outside temps increased or are you burning wood from a different tree now?

This is also a good time to check the flue for creosote accumulation. Start with the cap and check if the screen is starting to plug. Then check the pipe.

 

[maverick06]

aside from the creosote, are the glowing tubes a problem?

Ive wondered that myself. Occasionally I get the tubes glowing (nothing else)

 

[Bhowe007]

The outside temps have not increased, if anything it has been colder. I'm going to stop burning today and check everything this weekend. I will post some pics too. I'm inclined to think this is an airflow issue of some sort. Either a blocked secondary/primary or some sort of block in the chimney. The screen is not plugged but it does have some creosote on it. The underside of the rain cap is also black with creosote.

Do people usually burn with glowing secondary tubes?

 

[BrotherBart]

The glowing tubes aren't a problem. The tubes are heating the one in front of them and that makes them glow.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Glowing tubes- not a problem.

Ticking noises from expansion- very normal.

Being a bit nervous- normal and healthy.

Good on ya for being cautious and asking questions. Get that stove cranking a bit more and you'll get secondary burn, less smoke, less creosote, more heat... assuming the wood is dry.

 

[Bhowe007]

Good to know, I'm buying a moisture meter today. Hard to diagnose the problem without numbers to reference.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

This year I started burning wood in a new Enviro 1700. My temp gauge placement is on the front top of the door. I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that this position reads lower temps then I would receive on the top of the insert.

Anyhow, I was hesitant to fire the stove at temps which made the secondary tubes glow. The few times they have, I get a sweet secondary burn and the temp gauge reads about 400-500 degrees. When this happens I can hear the stove expanding which also makes me a little worried that I'm overfiring.

When you hear the tic, tic, tic, that does not necessarily mean an overfire. Just the metal expanding. Also you will get some if creosote is present and as it heats up you can get the same sort of thing.



The past couple weeks I've started to analyze how I'm burning the stove because I now have major problems with smoke back whenever I open the door. The screen on the top of the chimney cap and the bottom of the cap itself are blackened with tar and I'm wondering if this is due to the temps I'm burning at.

With a screen on top it can make a big difference on the size. 1/2" screen? Smaller? Larger? Coated with tar it does not take a lot to begin restricting the air flow.


As I sit here now, I have three splits in a hot stove that has been burning all day and with the air wide open I'm unable to get the gauge above 400 degrees.

Whoa! Here is one problem. If you burn with the air wide open all day you are simply letting most of the heat go right straight up the chimney rather than heating up the stove so you get the benefit of the heat. The draft has to be partially closed in order to function properly. In addition to that, if you have a creosote problem then burning with the air wide open leaves you with the great possibility of a chimney fire. As soon as that wood is charred good, start turning the draft down. Not all the way at first but usually half open to start with, then a little more if possible and a little more, etc. But never burn all the time with the draft full open. It is a waste of wood and a danger to you and your home.



I installed the stove myself because I wanted to use a factory insulated double wall liner and couldn't find a dealer who was interested in putting it in. I'm using 17 ft of Simpson Duraliner (rigid, 6" double walled), 5 ft of flexible stainless to get through the throat of the chimney, Kaowool insulation at the top and the bottom, and a 45 degree stove pipe connector between the insert and the flexible stainless. Every connection has been sealed with stovepipe cement.

I think that I will quit burning the stove on tomorrow and clean the chimney on Sunday to see if that helps anything. Does anybody have any recommendations? Criticism and advice is appreciated.

Most folks do not have to quit burning to clean the chimney but you may have to because of your installation. Just wanted to point out to you that all we've ever done was to burn the wood down to coals and then go ahead and clean the chimney.


Thank you in advance

 

[Bhowe007]

Thanks Backwoods.

The cap has 1/2 inch mesh, I've attached a pic.

I ran the stove wide open because it wasn't firing like it usually does. If I shut it down then the stove wasn't even staying lit. This makes me think I may have clogged the secondary some how.

What does everybody use to clean creosote? If I pull off the cap I'd like to get it good and clean. Will gasoline or paint thinner dissolve it?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I have always cleaned the cap using only a wire brush. I have also always removed the wire mesh! While it might keep a few birds out of the chimney we've usually found it was not worth the trouble to have it there so just took some wire cutters and got it out. Or, you might take some wire cutters and just remove part of the mesh to make the holes twice as large.

There is some stuff you can get from chimney sweeps to remove the creosote but I've never used it. Some report great results.

Back to the shutting down of the stove. Then I suggest the first time you reduce the draft to reduce it to 75%. Hopefully the fire will go okay and then after maybe 10-15 minutes try going down to half open, etc. With having to have the draft open way too far you just will not get the heat from your fuel.

Also, the majority of the problems we have with wood stoves comes from the fuel we are trying to burn. I recall the year we had to burn freshly cut white ash. Now white ash has about the lowest moisture content of any live tree and many do burn it green. We did one year (an injury and I could not cut wood for a few years) burn it green because I had to buy it. Well, we did not freeze that winter and came out alive. However, we cleaned our chimney many times that winter and even more times we got quite cold because we had a problem getting the new loads of wood to get started burning and then burn enough so we could reduce the draft. I'd hate to be put into that situation again. Now I try to keep 5-7 years of wood on hand at all times and that wood is 5-7 years after being cut to length, split and stacked out in the wind to let Mother Nature be our friend. Time and air is what all wood needs to be the best.

Also, the biggest benefit one gets from well seasoned wood is that it takes less wood to keep your house warmer.

 

[Bhowe007]

Problem found! I guess I shouldn't be so worried about burning too hot? The wood should be better next year too. I cut, split and stacked it this summer so it only has about 6 months of seasoning.

 

[jtp10181]

Mmmm... yes. That's what I was thinking it would look like when you first said it was black and tar covered. Stove doesn't burn so well when the cap is totally clogged.

Burn hotter and / or better wood and that will not be as much of a problem.

I get a special kind of enjoyment when I have to go out because "This stove wont work right at all, my wood is dry and I burned wood all my life" calls and demands there is something wrong with the stove. Usually I go up on the roof to find just that. Although that has not happened yet this year, but winter is not over yet. I am sure by the seasons end I will be on some one's snow covered roof in the dark with my headlamp and wire brush.

I try to explain to people the stove is just a steel box with about the simplest mechanics there are for the air controls, very rare for something to be wrong with it. They always think their air control is broken. For most of the Quads its a steel rod welded to a steel plate that slides over a hole cut out in a piece of steel. Seriously what is there to break?

I love the wood fireplace service calls.... I think all I have gotten to do this year is put a new rivnut on a 5700 stove for one of the legs that fell off (warranty). Used a floor jack to make sure it did not fall on my head. The customers probably can;t wait for me to leave when I am done talking their ears off about how to use the stove / fireplace. Maybe some day I will have a house I can put a wood stove in.