We are getting a brand new stove installed tomorrow, it is a steel model similar to the Englander 13 and it is replacing an old smoke dragon cast iron stove. The installer took a look at my chimney and didn't think there was anything wrong with it, but I'm wondering if I'm going to have draft problems with the new stove. It's a short chimney, outside and only 14 feet from ground to top, so the actual flue length from the top of the stove to the top of the flue will only be maybe 11 or 12 feet. It's 8x8 clay, no liner, and it has a 2 foot stainless steel extension on the top which brings the total length to about 16 ft top to bottom. Our old smokey never gave me any problems with smoke in the house, it always burned well (smoked up the whole outdoors though) but I'm wondering if this new epa stove will be more picky and not draft as well. I know its not a great setup but I really can't afford a liner or a mason to extend the chimney another 3 feet. I guess it's pretty much going to be a "try it and see" thing for me, but I'd like to hear what suggestions y'all might have for me to improve this setup on the cheap.
Questions on new stove installation
- Thread starter kingston73
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
If the flue has been certified to be in good condition it may work. How well depends on the stove and temps. Has this been inspected by a good sweep?
Different stoves have different secondary air routing and can be more or less tolerant of marginal draft. What is the stove make and model?
Different stoves have different secondary air routing and can be more or less tolerant of marginal draft. What is the stove make and model?
Assuming the flue has been inspected by a (certified) sweep and looks OK, I would just wait and see.
An insulated stainless liner with a class A flue extension would be beneficial though.
An insulated stainless liner with a class A flue extension would be beneficial though.
It is an Archgard 1600, and as for the chimney sweep, I only have the recommendation of the stove store to go by. He is certified but doesn't have a fancy website like some of the larger places available in my area. Not sure if that means anything at all, other than he is a smaller business.
From the manufacturer's installation manual:
"For optimal performance, masonry chimneys used to vent this
appliance should be lined with a 6" (152mm) stainless steel or
cast in place liner. Installations into a clay flue without a
stainless steel or cast in place liner may reduce draw which affects
performance, cause the glass to darken and produce excessive
creosote."
You got two things kind of threatening good performance here...less than optimum flue height, and greater than optimum flue cross-sectional area. An 8"x8" chimney has more than twice the area of the recommended 6" flue. I'm not saying it isn't going to work, some folks report good performance with similar setups, just saying that you're going into it with somewhat of a disadvantageous configuration. Rick
"For optimal performance, masonry chimneys used to vent this
appliance should be lined with a 6" (152mm) stainless steel or
cast in place liner. Installations into a clay flue without a
stainless steel or cast in place liner may reduce draw which affects
performance, cause the glass to darken and produce excessive
creosote."
You got two things kind of threatening good performance here...less than optimum flue height, and greater than optimum flue cross-sectional area. An 8"x8" chimney has more than twice the area of the recommended 6" flue. I'm not saying it isn't going to work, some folks report good performance with similar setups, just saying that you're going into it with somewhat of a disadvantageous configuration. Rick
A whole lot will depend upon your wood.
As for the height of the chimney, yours is higher than ours and we have no problem.
As for the height of the chimney, yours is higher than ours and we have no problem.
I have a few other questions unrelated to flue length but I decided to keep it all in one thread.
1) My chimney sweep/installer will be putting things in the week after next, and asked me if I had a preference for double wall pipe or single wall with a heat shield. Below is a picture of my hearth, you can see the 3 bricks up top where it looks like an old thimble was removed and blocked up. (don't know the history, but I don't know why the original builder would have done that otherwise. You can see an edge of the current thimble down near the top corner of the new stove) There is about 9 inches of clearance from the ceiling to the top of the vertical bricks. From what I can find single wall is much cheaper but has a min. clearance of 18 inches, while double wall has a 6 inch clearance. I always want to save money but is single wall/heat shield still safe, or should I just tell him I want double wall no matter the cost.
2) The room the stove is in is relatively small, with a wide doorway opening to the hall and the rest of the house. Do those heat powered Ecofans actually work? Do the little square fans that are made for the corners of doors work? Or would I be better off just using one of my pedestal fans I use in the summer to circulate the air?
1) My chimney sweep/installer will be putting things in the week after next, and asked me if I had a preference for double wall pipe or single wall with a heat shield. Below is a picture of my hearth, you can see the 3 bricks up top where it looks like an old thimble was removed and blocked up. (don't know the history, but I don't know why the original builder would have done that otherwise. You can see an edge of the current thimble down near the top corner of the new stove) There is about 9 inches of clearance from the ceiling to the top of the vertical bricks. From what I can find single wall is much cheaper but has a min. clearance of 18 inches, while double wall has a 6 inch clearance. I always want to save money but is single wall/heat shield still safe, or should I just tell him I want double wall no matter the cost.
2) The room the stove is in is relatively small, with a wide doorway opening to the hall and the rest of the house. Do those heat powered Ecofans actually work? Do the little square fans that are made for the corners of doors work? Or would I be better off just using one of my pedestal fans I use in the summer to circulate the air?
Eco fans are good for moving small amounts of air, I use mine for stirring up the air around the kettle to move water vapor away from the stove.
Every house is different, but if you have a pedestal fan, using it to move cool air from the rest of the house to the room with the stove in it seems to be a preferred method.
From what I have read on the forum, the corner fans get mixed reviews. I do not think that they would move enough air in my house to make any difference at all. We use a ceiling fan running in reverse in the winter and a fan to move cool air from the front part of the house to the rear, where the stove is.
My set up is very different than yours, so I will let those with experience with stove pipes answer your other questions.
Every house is different, but if you have a pedestal fan, using it to move cool air from the rest of the house to the room with the stove in it seems to be a preferred method.
From what I have read on the forum, the corner fans get mixed reviews. I do not think that they would move enough air in my house to make any difference at all. We use a ceiling fan running in reverse in the winter and a fan to move cool air from the front part of the house to the rear, where the stove is.
My set up is very different than yours, so I will let those with experience with stove pipes answer your other questions.
I'm with backwoods on the wood. I ran my first modern stove on a sub-optimal chimney the first year and made out just fine. However I had premium very well dried wood to work with. Had the wood not been perfect I would have been fighting a losing fight.
The next year I spent 425 dollars and lined the chimney myself with flex liner. The difference was remarkable. Stove burned well before, but became effortless after.
If the chimney guy says it's safe give it a go but start saving your change in a bucket and by this time next summer you'll have cash enough to buy that liner.
pen
The next year I spent 425 dollars and lined the chimney myself with flex liner. The difference was remarkable. Stove burned well before, but became effortless after.
If the chimney guy says it's safe give it a go but start saving your change in a bucket and by this time next summer you'll have cash enough to buy that liner.
pen
It may sound crazy, but a larger flue/chimney is not better. The 6" will draft better than the 8x8. Also, get the stove in first, then worry about moving air around. If you do need to move air, blow your colder air toward the stove, don't try to blow warm air from the stove to the colder areas.
pen said:
This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the setup will be usable, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that I will find myself up on the roof in november. Worst case scenario is we'd have to use the credit card and pay things down slowly, rather not do that if possible. I know the 8x8 isn't great.
Plus, you have a short, cold chimney because it is outside. It will take a lot of heat that you might find more enjoyable on the inside, to keep it warm enough to draft properly. An insulated liner would correct the problem.
As far as the pipe goes I personally like the extra heat I get from single wall and I use to have a similar setup to yours requiring a top heat shield which didn't look bad at all. Only problem I see with using single wall in your case is your outside 8x8 chimney. Double wall may help keep it a little hotter and may draft a bit better as well. But then again if your old stove drafted well with single wall you would think your new stove should be ok. I think I'd try single and see how it goes then save up for an insulated liner.
I looked at chimneylinerdepot and I could get a flex-liner kit plus the pour-in insulation I'd need for about $500 plus shipping. I have looked at many different diy videos of how to do this, so I know the main points but there are still a few things I don't understand.
1. Does the kit require taking out the thimble and putting the Tee assembly in? I've seen 2 kinds of tee's, some look like 1 piece and others are 2 piece. Will the 2 piece ones install with my current thimble in place?
2. My current outside chimney has the cleanout at the base, at ground level. Would I need to have a new cleanout opening put into the chimney higher up since my thimble will be about 6 feel above ground level?
3. How much more efficient would the double wall pipe be? In other words, how much would double wall help my currently marginal flue setup?
1. Does the kit require taking out the thimble and putting the Tee assembly in? I've seen 2 kinds of tee's, some look like 1 piece and others are 2 piece. Will the 2 piece ones install with my current thimble in place?
2. My current outside chimney has the cleanout at the base, at ground level. Would I need to have a new cleanout opening put into the chimney higher up since my thimble will be about 6 feel above ground level?
3. How much more efficient would the double wall pipe be? In other words, how much would double wall help my currently marginal flue setup?
- Status
Similar threads
