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R-value of concrete plus slate?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by gyrfalcon, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    Not sure what camera you have but there should be a "format memory card" button in the "tools" menu. Everything on the card will be lost when your format it...

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  2. DAKSY

    DAKSY Patriot Guard Rider Staff Member

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    If, by the "Best Stuff" you're talking about Micore, Best Fire in Green Island - across the river from Troy, NY - has it in stock 20" x 72" x 1/2" sheets. 518-687-2388...Last I knew it was about $20 per sheet...
  3. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Yes, it will wipe out everything that's on it, and I've unloaded them all in expectation of that. But it randomly eats anything new you put on it, too.

    No tools menu on this camera, and no "format memory card" function on the camera itself, an Olympus SP-500 bought about 10 years ago. It's one o' those "idiot proof" cameras that has so many options and is so complicated to operate, I'd rather have the non-idiot proof version. As a result, I haven't used it very much, which makes it even harder to remember how.
  4. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    Maybe I'm missing something here, but I am under the impression that a raised hearth reduces your required clearance to combustible by the height of the hearth. If so, and I think you said your hearth is raised 4 inches, you then have in effect 47 inches rather than 43. I'll go back and look at the Heritage requirements. The pad doesn't have to be very deep, @ 37 1/2 inches, but I don't know how far out from the wall the pad would have to be to provide the protection needed in front. I'll look and see if I can figure it out quickly. I'm probably wasting my time, because I am sure you have already checked.
  5. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Thanks very much for the tip, and I'll bear it in mind if I decide to go that way with the hearth. But that's more than 100 miles from me, LOL. Cost me more in gasoline to get there and back in my truck than the Micore would.
  6. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Oh, wow, that's another thing that wouldn't have occurred to me, but I bet you're right about that. You're not wasting your time as far as I'm concerned! You've been a huge help.

    Hey, wait a second.... Since I'd have to put a minimal hearth pad on top of it anyway to be sure I was at that 1.1 R mark, why couldn't I just cut an opening in the part of that nice wooden framing that overlaps the edge of the existing hearth and let the hearth pad overhang it by however many inches it needs to? Not ideal, but if I can do that, it all becomes pretty simple rather than a summer-long hassle I don't have time for.

    It's pretty ridiculous to have to buy a bigger stove than you actually need because of the hearth hassle, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to have the extra firepower during those worst spells of winter. (And I really do like the side-loading door...) Hmmm.
  7. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    I just looked at both the Heritage manual and the online info about the Heritage at the Hearthstone website.

    Appears the manual is not up to date.

    The website says (and I almost quote):"The updated look of this whole house heater with taller legs now only requires ember protection."

    So, if you exchanged for a Heritage, you'd only need ember protection, as long as you made sure you got a current model with the longer legs. .

    The "documents" section with schematics does not show the overhead view WITH the stove on a heath pad, as the Mansfield and Homestead schematics do. But, going from the manual and required cleanace to combustibles:

    with the heritage you would need 7 inches at the rear to your combustible, the width of the BODY of the stove (and they bold BODY, so you don't need to worry about the legs, which makes the stove deeper), which is 18 3/4 inches. and then 16 inches in front of that for hearth protection for the glass, equals a total of 41 3/4 inches unless I am wrong somewhere.

    So I think the Heritage would fit on your hearth as is? I've not quite got your pipe exit clear in my mind, but it is quite common to use an adjustable bend to move pipe closer to or further from a wall. I'll reread your post and see if I can picture your set up neaar where it exits. Be surprised if you can't move the pipe closer to the wall so it can be where the Heritage would require when installed as close to the wall as permitted.

    Edit: Sounds like a simple horizontal exit. I can't see why there would be any problem moving the pipe closer to the wall and using an adjustable 90. You have a few inches to work with anyway, I think, since your requirement with the stove 7 inches from the wall is under 42 inches, and I think your hearth is effectively 47 inches. If so, the stove could be as much as 12 inches from the wall if you wished. In a narrow room, I'd try to get it as close to the wall as reasonable, as it makes the room feel bigger.

    If I've got all this right, I'd be exchanging for a Heritage. It'd make your life easier. And it sure wouldn't have any trouble heating your home. You might actually be more comfortable. I'm a bit concerned that Homestead may throw a ton of heat out the window. Firebox size on the Heritage:2.3 cu ft, on the Homestead 2.0. Not too much difference.

    The Homestead appears to have the flue exit set up behind the main body of the stove, as one can see from the overhead schematic, so there is not that huge an effective difference in the depth of the heritage and homestead, for placement purposes on a hearth. The Hertiage actually takes less room, I think. Anyway, it's close. But the firebox on the Heritage is deeper, significantly, and I think will be a bit more moderate in the heat it throws out the front as a result.
  8. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Wowie zowie. I am once more amazed at Hearthstone's inability to get their current specs out to the dealers, and/or demand the dealers be aware of them.

    Advice to all prospective Hearthstone buyers-- don't just read the printed literature and talk to the salesman at the dealership, read through the Web site, download the manuals there, and don't be surprised if they have different information.

    The far edge of the pipe is 12.5 inches from the wall. Not sure what you mean by horizontal exit. The Heritage can do either, but I was assuming using the top flue exit. Would using the rear exit make this all easier? I'm at the point of being unable to deal with simple arithmetic on this anymore...

    Rideau, you are magnificent.
  9. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    Not sure which version of the 500 you have but take a look at the image below...

    olympus500.gif olympus500_1.gif
    (Click image for larger view) (Click image for larger view)


    KaptJaq
  10. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    Go out the top.

    41 3/4 inches out from the wall = 7 inch behind the stove. So you have to measure how far out from the wall the center of the pipe is, and check from the schematics on the Heritage how far from the back of the stove the center of the flue exit is. Add that to the distance the heritage is from the wall, and compare that distance to the distance the center of the pipe is from the wall. You may have enough room to install the stove without moving the pipe. I'll take one more quick llok at the Heritage site. If I can easily determine the distance from the back of the stove to center of flue exit, I'll post it.

    Edit: The writing is hazy, but I'm pretty sure the distance is 6 1/2 inches from the line drawn between the back corner of the two back legs. With the legs, the stove is 3 inches deeper, so that would add 1 1/2 inches on the back to the depth. So, measuring from the back of the leg, the stove is now 5 1/2 inches from the wall; from that point to the center of the flue is 6 1/2 inches, a total of 12 inches. So, with the closest permissible installation, the center of the flue is 12 inches from the wall. Where is the center of your flue? If further out, just install the stove a bit further out. If closer in, you'll have to make a slight adjustment, but it should be eminently do-able.

    PLEASE go over all this and confirm everything, but I do believe the Heritage will work.
  11. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Thanks Kapt, I was just about to do that. When all else fails, RTM!
  12. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Thanks for going to the trouble, but trust me, that's not my camera manual and those pages don't appear anywhere in it. Mine is the SP-500 UZ.

    It's been a while since I researched this, but if I remember right, the Olympus Web site had instructions on how to do it (though the camera manual itself doesn't even mention it as a possibility), which involved using either the software that comes with the camera or something from their Web site, can't remember which. At any rate, it was fussy enough that I didn't have time to deal with it then, put it aside and never got back to it. And now I need new batteries before I can try again.
  13. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Center of the flue is currently 16 inches and a small fraction from the wall. (And that's the part of the wall with some sort of fabricated faux brick heat shield on it, material unknown, from the previous owners. That goes up about 4 feet from the hearth, then there's three feet of bare wall that's another inch farther away, and then the plate where the pipe goes through the wall.

    What I'm going to do is make a careful diagram with measurements and take that and a printout of your figuring out to the absolutely superb service guy I've dealt with from time to time up at the dealership (don't trust the salesman on this, at this point) and see what he thinks. I've overheard him going over a friend's install diagram and clearances and pipe installation in meticulous detail, so he should be able to handle this. If he gives the go-ahead, then I'll go talk to the salesman and see what I can do about switching stoves. I got a $300 sale (in addition to the $300 tax credit) price on the stove, so I don't know for sure whether they'll honor that if I switch stoves. But even if not, it should still not cost me much more than the Homestead plus the fancy-shmancy prefab hearth pad.

    If this works, you will have my undying gratitude (and I'll never say another snarky thing about Canadian pronunciation to my dying day to boot!). Even if it turns out not to work, you have my undying gratitude for trying to figure this out for me.
  14. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Ho, ho, ho, ha, ha. Problem is, that's not the manual for my camera model.
  15. rideau

    rideau Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like a good plan. Glad you have someone you trust to check things, go over everything with you. I suspect you could hook the Heritage up to your pipe exactly where your pipe is, given that you are on a raised hearth. That would be nice and simple. If so, I'd do that. If you decide down the road that you want the stove four inches closer to the wall, you can just as easily later as now adjust the pipe. And spend the money doing it at a different time than you are paying for the stove. With luck, you have an incredibly simple install.
  16. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    From your mouth to God's ears! I'll have to wait until early next week to make the 100-mile round-trip up there and consult, but I'll post back what they say and how it goes after I do.

    (Rideau, fyi, there's something very odd about your posts. As above, I got email notification of one, but it wasn't posted here so exists only in my email inbox. Then this one I'm replying to now I got no email notification of, I only discovered it was here by chance.)
  17. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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    According to Olympus USA, that is the manual for the SP-500 UZ, a camera that went out of production a number of years ago.


    Here is the link to all the documentation for the Olympus SP 500 UZ. The information you need is in the advanced user manual, the first link on the page. I never liked the Olympus menus, they are NOT intuitive.

    http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_support_manuals.asp?id=1189

    KaptJaq
  18. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Oh, an "advanced" user manual, is it, where they explain stuff they don't even bother to mention exists in the umpty-page densely printed thing that came with the camera? Sigh. Thanks very much, Kapt, for the link. I wonder if there's other stuff in there I never knew about...
  19. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    That's been my experience, with lots of products (especially anything computer related which digital cameras are) -- the printed manual is often the less inclusive manual, if there even is one, the on disk or online manual is the one to check out for details.
  20. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Well, it honestly never occurred to me that that would be the case for cameras, but I guess I better get used to that for pretty much everything, huh.
  21. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  22. KaptJaq

    KaptJaq Minister of Fire

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  23. dback

    dback New Member

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    I would like to thank all of you for your postings. I am/was in the process of purchasing a Homestead. When I recieved the quote I looked at the price of the hearth pad as being a total novice at this, the quote seemed high. I did searches and went to a stone vendor who recommended using Pennsylvania Bluestone treads. They looked great and I thought the problem was resolved but I wanted to make sure that all of this was to code and from your postings and reading the specs from Hearthstone and see the 6.6 r factor requirement I'm not sure if the quote which is using 2" slate will meet the requirement.

    My fireplace opening is somewhat small, 24 1/2" tall x 27" wide so the Heritage looked like a great choice but looking at the hearth requirments I'm not so sure. My existing hearth is only 15" wide and is slate, so will adding 2" of slate acheive an r factor of 6.6.

    What I find confusing is the way it is state in the installation guide as it states "one of the following..."
    Install your Hearth Mount stove with 4-inch legs on one of the following:
    A noncombustible floor, such as a slab, cement, or stone hearth. (A noncombustible floor will not ignite, burn, support combustion, or release flammable vapors when subjected to fire or the anticipated heat from your stove.)

    A floor protector with an R-value of 6.6 or more that you obtain from your dealer. (A floor protector is any noncombustible on the floor underneath and extending to the front, sides, and rear of the wood stove.)

    So because my current hearth is slate can I ignore the need for a 6.6 r factor?
  24. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The short leg Homestead has a very high insulation requirement. You need to know what is under the slate all the way down. If concrete, how thick and is there anything under it?
  25. gyrfalcon

    gyrfalcon Minister of Fire

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    Are you talking about the Homestead or the Heritage? You say one thing in one graph and the other in the next.

    I also have a slate hearth with only a small amount of underlayment-- 1/2 plywood and maybe a rough 1/2 of cement, and when I was considering a Homestead, I was told it didn't amount to enough to make a difference and I'd need to either completely rebuild the hearth or get one of those heavy-duty hearthpads. The Homestead is designed to go inside a stone fireplace, not outside on the hearth.

    If you're talking about the Heritage, with long legs it needs only ember protection, so that's what I ended up getting. It's deeper than the Homestead, but if I recall, it's not that much different in height and width. And it throws out a whole lot more heat. When I realized that rebuilding the hearth to spec or adding a heavy-duty hearthpad would cost more than the difference between the Homestead and the Heritage, the choice to go with the Heritage instead was an easy one.

    As Begreen said, the thing about the hearth requirement isn't whether the top layer is noncombustible, it's how deep the non-combustible material goes. I don't know what the R value is of the blue slate, do you? It's surely way less than 6.6, so you'd need to take apart your current slate hearth to find out what's underneath it and add up the values to see what you'd need to put on top to meet the 6.6.

    If you go with the Heritage, you can extend your hearth to the stove's hearth size requirement with anything non-combustible because the only danger is from hot coals rolling out the door. It's got a bottom heat shield built in, so you can put your hand underneath the stove when it's roaring hot and only feel a pleasant warmth.

    And before you do anything, find out whether your local officials and/or insurance company will require an inspection before you use it. Neither is required in my state, but probably is in Delaware.

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