Replacing a fireplace with something more efficient

[bholler]

Doesn't the insert's UL testing then supercede, especially if the insert manufacture has it tested for ZC use?

No an insert needs to be installed in a working fireplace. And all of the insert manufacturers require that fireplace to be ul listed dont they? And on almost all fireplace instructions doesnt it say if you install any component or modify the fireplace in any way you have voided the ul listing?

I'm still not understanding where you think there is a safety issue.

I am not saying there will always be a safety issue I am saying if inserts were not tested in a given fireplace we have no idea if there is a safety issue.

The insert sides are much lower temp than an open fire

Yes but the insert will be at temp for much longer periods of time than that fireplace was designed for with much less airflow through the box which could easily allow for more heat transfer.

the liner is insulated thus providing more protection than the original chimney

Yes if it is insulated but you and I both know many homeowners and installers dont do that then agian you have temps for much more extended periods of time leading to more heat transfer.

The you have the issue that many of the zc units were not installed with proper clearances to begin with and many are at or past their expected life span already. There are just to many unknowns for it to be worth the risk for me. And if you do it you will still have the drafty old zc unit there sucking heat out of the house.

 

[BKVP]

And are you ok with your insert being installed in a fireplace that specifically says you cannot install an insert in it? I am not trying to be confrontational at all I just am curious what your answer is.

No.

 

[bholler]

No.

Good how about a fireplace that says you cant use any accessories with it that are not listed by the fireplace manufacturer? Again just trying to get the perspective of a stove manufacturer. I have asked regency these same questions and they avoided them so I am very appreciative that you have answered me truthfully.

 

[BKVP]

Hearth protection is yet another issue. Believe it or not, some people order UL127 approved wood burning fireplaces, have them framed into the wall and then stick an insert inside the fireplace. The problem is someone could say "Hey I have an insert that requires 16" of hearth protection and install the insert with a 16" hearth protection. But they move away and take their insert. Now you have a wood burning fireplace sitting there with only 16" of hearth protection, which is both not safe and a code violation.

Also, keep in mind the industry has had great consolidation. I know of a fireplace manufacturer that at one time claimed wood inserts were o.k. to be installed in their fireplaces, so long as the conditions are all met. Then the fireplace company was acquired by a bigger company that made wood and pellet burning inserts and relabeled the product to only be approved with "specific" products.

bholler is correct about fireplaces that were installed incorrectly. Not being able to see that situation, hidden by rock or sheet rock etc., does not mean wood inserts cannot be installed legally, but rather should not be installed. Short of ripping down much of what is there that could be hiding poor installations, inserts will continue to be installed into fireplaces.

If a fireplace mfg. labels their product specifically that no wood or pellet insert should be installed into them, then it should not be done.

 

[begreen]

If a fireplace mfg. labels their product specifically that no wood or pellet insert should be installed into them, then it should not be done.

Agreed.

Good how about a fireplace that says you cant use any accessories with it that are not listed by the fireplace manufacturer?

And if one installs a non-OEM door gasket, door glass, firebrick? That could also void UL testing, no?

 

[bholler]

Hearth protection is yet another issue. Believe it or not, some people order UL127 approved wood burning fireplaces, have them framed into the wall and then stick an insert inside the fireplace. The problem is someone could say "Hey I have an insert that requires 16" of hearth protection and install the insert with a 16" hearth protection. But they move away and take their insert. Now you have a wood burning fireplace sitting there with only 16" of hearth protection, which is both not safe and a code violation.

Also, keep in mind the industry has had great consolidation. I know of a fireplace manufacturer that at one time claimed wood inserts were o.k. to be installed in their fireplaces, so long as the conditions are all met. Then the fireplace company was acquired by a bigger company that made wood and pellet burning inserts and relabeled the product to only be approved with "specific" products.

bholler is correct about fireplaces that were installed incorrectly. Not being able to see that situation, hidden by rock or sheet rock etc., does not mean wood inserts cannot be installed legally, but rather should not be installed. Short of ripping down much of what is there that could be hiding poor installations, inserts will continue to be installed into fireplaces.

If a fireplace mfg. labels their product specifically that no wood or pellet insert should be installed into them, then it should not be done.

Again thank you very much for your honest responses but I would like to hear your view point on fireplaces that say you cannot use any accessories that are not listed for use with that fireplace. (which from what I have seen is most of them) If the fireplace manufacturer says that it is ok to put an insert in there than obviously I have no issue with that. But I have come across very few that say that.

 

[bholler]

And if one installs a non-OEM door gasket, door glass, firebrick? That could also void UL testing, no?

Yes absolutely. That is why I always use original spec parts for repair.

 

[BKVP]

Again thank you very much for your honest responses but I would like to hear your view point on fireplaces that say you cannot use any accessories that are not listed for use with that fireplace. (which from what I have seen is most of them) If the fireplace manufacturer says that it is ok to put an insert in there than obviously I have no issue with that. But I have come across very few that say that.

If the fireplace is, at the direction of the manufacturer, not to have any accessory installed, than it should not be done. However, it is very clear a great deal goes on without much in the way of inspection or review.

One retailer was using UL127 approved fireplaces in connection with installing wood and pellet inserts. As to whether or not the mfg had approved such installs became second when we learned that he had been cutting out the bottom of the fireplaces and setting inserts by various manufacturers on brcks stacked to get needed height.

When I called him on this pratice he was insistant that he had installed hundreds of inserts this way the past decade. Of course, we no longer sell to the dealer.

 

[bholler]

If the fireplace is, at the direction of the manufacturer, not to have any accessory installed, than it should not be done. However, it is very clear a great deal goes on without much in the way of inspection or review.

One retailer was using UL127 approved fireplaces in connection with installing wood and pellet inserts. As to whether or not the mfg had approved such installs became second when we learned that he had been cutting out the bottom of the fireplaces and setting inserts by various manufacturers on brcks stacked to get needed height.

When I called him on this pratice he was insistant that he had installed hundreds of inserts this way the past decade. Of course, we no longer sell to the dealer.

Thank you very much for your answers I really appreciate it.

 

[begreen]

Yes absolutely. That is why I always use original spec parts for repair.

Original spec may not be the same as OEM for example with stove gaskets door glass. Good that you try though.

 

[bholler]

Original spec may not be the same as OEM for example with stove gaskets door glass. Good that you try though.

Glass gasket is one where we do really try to get OEM when possible. We carry allot of gasket on the truck but there are times we don't have the proper gasket and in those cases we will have to order OEM.

 

[begreen]

I was thinking of it being hard to get IR coated glass and substituting neoceram or robax which is typically used as a replacement unless OEM is available locally in stock. My recent experience replacing the PE Alderlea gasket showed me the difference between different replacement medium density gaskets and the OEM gasket construction. There is a difference.

 

[bholler]

I was thinking of it being hard to get IR coated glass and substituting neoceram or robax which is typically used as a replacement unless OEM is available locally in stock.

We have a glass shop where we can get neoceram that we use for non coated glass but if it is coated we order it.

My recent experience replacing the PE Alderlea gasket showed me the difference between different replacement medium density gaskets and the OEM gasket construction. There is a difference.

We have about 30 different rolls of gasket on the truck in different sized and densities we can usually match the original.

 

[begreen]

All good, but Neoceram is not used in all stoves, some use Robax at a slightly different thickness. My point is that sometimes even pros' technically violate UL tested OEM standards when they do repairs. This is not to criticize or say that the repair is unsafe. Though in some cases the repair may change the performance of the stove.

 

[bholler]

All good, but Neoceram is not used in all stoves, some use Robax at a slightly different thickness. My point is that sometimes even pros' technically violate UL tested OEM standards when they do repairs. This is not to criticize or say that the repair is unsafe. Though in some cases the repair may change the performance of the stove.

Yes absolutely but using a replacement part that is slightly different from oem is totally different that completely ignoring the instructions for one part of an install and doing the exact opposite of what it says.

I am curious if your view has been influenced at all by bkvp's comments? And btw I have had conversations with stoveguy about this issue and he agrees with me.

 

[begreen]

The real world where you are trying to fix a situation so that a person can get safely heating again sometimes meets compromises. So does a dealer in the field when installing an insert. I think we're all on the side of safety here. I very much respect BKVP's experience and opinions, your's too. I would never recommend someone installing an insert in a cheap ZC fireplace where the concern is how well it would support the weight. Some of the contractor grade stuff is really flimsy. But I too have been in contact with installers and I ask this question of installing insert most times I visit stove shops. Many are still installing relying on the insert's manual and their judgement. FWIW I note that in the manuals of the the two largest mfgs. of ZC fireplaces have softened or dropped their restrictions of inserts in their fireplaces. It would be great if there was a uniform testing standard and UL rating for this option.

 

[bholler]

. I would never recommend someone installing an insert in a cheap ZC fireplace where the concern is how well it would support the weight. Some of the contractor grade stuff is really flimsy.

And how does one determine how much a fireplace can support they are only required by their listing to support 100 lbs per sqft. Even allot of the more expensive ones are still pretty flimsy.

But I too have been in contact with installers and I ask this question of installing insert most times I visit stove shops. Many are still installing relying on the insert's manual and their judgement.

So it is ok to disregard manufacturers instructions if there are other guys doing it?

FWIW I note that in the manuals of the the two largest mfgs. of ZC fireplaces have softened or dropped their restrictions of inserts in their fireplaces. It would be great if there was a uniform testing standard and UL rating for this option.

Yes they tested certain inserts in those fireplaces and determined they were safe to be used together. I have absolutely no problem with that. But those changes do not apply to their older units or to any insert only the specific ones tested.

 

[begreen]

@dillius Word came back from HHT today:

Thank you for your inquiry.

It is approved to put the Quadrafire 2700i into the EC42. The insert is made to be placed in an existing fireplace and the EC42 is acceptable. Please continue to work with your dealer to ensure you are installing everything correctly.

Thank you,

Morgan W

Hearth & Home Technologies Consumer Support

 

[bholler]

Thank you for your inquiry.

It is approved to put the Quadrafire 2700i into the EC42. The insert is made to be placed in an existing fireplace and the EC42 is acceptable. Please continue to work with your dealer to ensure you are installing everything correctly.

Thank you,

Morgan W

Hearth & Home Technologies Consumer Support

Well good I professionally would still want them to officially sign off on changing the instructions because they did not do that in that response. But if they are willing to give you that response I don't doubt that they would be willing to make that change.

 

[dillius]

Well a bit of an update:

I've had a number of quotes done and it just keeps getting worse and worse.

The largest insert I could support from quadrafire would be the 2700i which seems like I would just be throwing money away for nothing. For getting that setup I've had quotes anywhere from 5k-8k.

Full replacement with a 7100 I have had quotes vary from 8.5k to 15k, and I'm really starting to have no faith in any of these companies/contractors to be competent at all. I'm really starting to think about just doing the work myself.

I'm also starting to wonder if I wouldn't just be better off leaving the fireplace and installing a freestanding wood stove completely independent of it. That honestly seems like it would be cheaper and easier.

 

[begreen]

The Quad 2700i is a decent heater. It might be fine, especially for GA. If you are reasonably handy with tools and good at following directions, and patient then DIY is possible. A liner + insert should run in the $3K+ range.

How large an area are you trying to heat? Are there any exceptional factors like closed off rooms, high ceilings, excessive glazing?

 

[dillius]

The entire house is 2600 sqft, though I intend to mainly heat the upper portion and ignore the basement. So long as it doesn't reach freezing we use it very rarely in the winter.

I do have the problem of extremely high ceilings, the main room in which the fireplace sits has a steep roof that peaks at about 20 feet high.

 

[begreen]

Your call. Putting a freestanding stove in another location might work out fine depending on the options.
For sure you will need ceiling fans to de-stratify the heat that will pocket at the ceiling peak.

 

[dillius]

Thankfully there are already two fans, though they are old and I intend to upgrade them.

There is one to each side, hanging at about the halfway point. I should research to see if having them higher would be more beneficial.

 

[bholler]

Full replacement with a 7100 I have had quotes vary from 8.5k to 15k, and I'm really starting to have no faith in any of these companies/contractors to be competent at all. I'm really starting to think about just doing the work myself.

Why are you loosing faith in them a complete replacement could easily run upwards of 10k. Honestly I think a freestander would be the cheapest and simplest solution.

And I sent a message to hht also and got the exact same initial response as begreen did but when I asked if they would alter the instructions for the fireplace they responded that no they could not do that and simply responded that the insert is approved. So it is the same thing they will allow for the insert but will not ok it for the fireplace.