Reverse Slope or Short Legs or Liner?

[JV_Thimble]

Amazing how the more I read from this website & look into my setup, the more I realize I need to change if I'm to make things workable. Thought this question was different enough that perhaps I should start a new post.

It turns out that my 'horizontal' run to a ceramic lined masonry chimney is actually very slightly reverse -sloped. To the tune of a 1/4" in two feet. So, free liquid would flow towards the chimney, if present. I see three possible options (maybe more, but these seem most practical to me at the moment - being too early):

1. Minor issue, don't worry about it, just go ahead and connect it back up (with proper piping, combustibles clearances, and the like).
2. Get a short leg kit for the stove, and find someway of connecting a slightly shorter stove into the wall (I don't think you could just deflect Class A and/or double wall pipe that much at the joints). I'm also assuming I could use this kit or something similar - http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2007/2002735_Stove_Leg.pdf.
3. Keep (or shorten, as needed) the current legs for the stove, reline the masonry flue (with stainless), and hopefully get enough additional height from removing the Class A section that's there (if it works that way), and/or from use of a flexible liner, to connect the stove up with proper slope back towards the stove.

Any thoughts/suggestions appreciated. FWIW, all of you here have been very patient and helpful. It's much appreciated.

 

[Renovation]

Amazing how the more I read from this website & look into my setup, the more I realize I need to change if I'm to make things workable.

It turns out that my 'horizontal' run to a ceramic lined masonry chimney is actually very slightly reverse -sloped. To the tune of a 1/4" in two feet. So, free liquid would flow towards the chimney, if present.

Any thoughts/suggestions appreciated. FWIW, all of you here have been very patient and helpful. It's much appreciated.

Hey JVT,

I'm a newb, so I'll keep my ponderings to a minimum, but I don't have to be an expert to compliment you on your attitude, including wanting to make your setup right. Way to go.

As a total WAG, I'm wondering if it'd be worth your while to get at least 1/4" upward slope, and thinking that the joints may have enough slop to handle it and an easy fix might be to grind 3/4" off your legs. I'll be curious to see what the experts say about, that, and about relining. (I'm playing along at home.) How do you think your draft is now?

Those are just guesses, and I'll defer to the experts here.

Happy trails and good luck!

 

[JV_Thimble]

Hi RenovationGeorge -

Draft is generally ok, I guess. Seems I fairly often have to crack a door downstairs (near the stove) to avoid smoke coming down the flue (at least at the start). After that, things work very well.

 

[Renovation]

Hi RenovationGeorge -

Draft is generally ok, I guess. Seems I fairly often have to crack a door downstairs (near the stove) to avoid smoke coming down the flue (at least at the start). After that, things work very well.

It sounds to me like your draft could use a little help, and I can see how that reverse slope would give you a problem on startup, until the vertical part of your chimney has heated up enough to overcome it. I'd consider correcting the slope on that horizontal section, like I said, and hope to get my idea sanity checked by someone wiser. I'd take an inch off those legs if I could, or buy or fabricate shorter legs if you don't want to cut up your originals.

The questions in my are if the joints at the stove and wall have enough slop to give you the tilt, and if the 1" reduction in stove-floor clearance would be a fire hazard.

A liner is a good thing too, if you can swing it, and if you did that you could raise the hearth connection without messing with your stove.

BeGreen? BrotherBart? Anyone? What do you think?

 

[madison]

First thought I had is, do it correctly by "thimbling" into the masonry chimney higher on the wall ? ~ where the horse pictures are located. Then, if you ever replace the '77 VC, you have options for other units.

BTW, i sorta wonder about that wood mantel clearance as being another issue to consider however you decide to approach the problem.

 

[JV_Thimble]

First thought I had is, do it correctly by "thimbling" into the masonry chimney higher on the wall ? ~ where the horse pictures are located. Then, if you ever replace the '77 VC, you have options for other units.

BTW, i sorta wonder about that wood mantel clearance as being another issue to consider however you decide to approach the problem.

Higher on the wall would be good, how would I seal off the existing Class A? Seems to me it would be best to leave it in place than to try and free it from the exterior block wall that it's mortared into.

Totally agree on the mantle = +1. I've been envisioning extending the Class A beyond the brick surface far enough to take care of clearance issues when I transition to double wall. Considering that it was single wall pipe jammed into the Class A before, whatever I do (even if of slightly incorrect slope) will be many time better than what was.

 

[JV_Thimble]

Hi RenovationGeorge -

Draft is generally ok, I guess. Seems I fairly often have to crack a door downstairs (near the stove) to avoid smoke coming down the flue (at least at the start). After that, things work very well.

It sounds to me like your draft could use a little help, and I can see how that reverse slope would give you a problem on startup, until the vertical part of your chimney has heated up enough to overcome it. I'd consider correcting the slope on that horizontal section, like I said, and hope to get my idea sanity checked by someone wiser. I'd take an inch off those legs if I could, or buy or fabricate shorter legs if you don't want to cut up your originals.

The questions in my are if the joints at the stove and wall have enough slop to give you the tilt, and if the 1" reduction in stove-floor clearance would be a fire hazard.

A liner is a good thing too, if you can swing it, and if you did that you could raise the hearth connection without messing with your stove.

BeGreen? BrotherBart? Anyone? What do you think?

I'm guessing most of the draft problem has to do with location - essentially a basement install, and a 23.5 foot chimney on the outside of the house. I think of the slope as a very minor (but technically incorrect) problem. Just the same, chimney fires are low probability and high consequence events as well. An easier way might be to put a small brick/concrete platform under the stove footprint (to raise a bit more), and use the shorter legs. But that might look rather strange.

No fire hazard with shorter legs in this case. The Vigilant manual seems quite ok with reducing the clearance for completely non-combustible, uncoated concrete underneath (which is what I've got).

Depending on how the planning and timing on all of this goes, there may well be a liner involved. I'd like to get to a serviceable condition quickly if I can reasonably do so, but we'll see.

 

[madison]

? 1st post reads ..."my ‘horizontal’ run to a ceramic lined masonry chimney"
Anyway, picture worth a thousand words....

http://i1.squidoocdn.com/resize/squ...11module117459681photo_1283367189DSCN1988.JPG

 

[JV_Thimble]

? 1st post reads ..."my ‘horizontal’ run to a ceramic lined masonry chimney"
Anyway, picture worth a thousand words....

Looks great - thanks.

 

[JV_Thimble]

With all the problems I've had (and not even realized it) -

combustibles clearances
creosote buildup
too green of wood
improper burning practices
masonry/unlined flue
reverse sloped horizontal off of stove

It's clear I need to make some changes and not do anything halfway here. Start with safety and a proper chimney system, and then get the other things right (I'll enjoy that). As the horizontal pipe is slightly reverse-sloped, and I don't want to mess with shorter legs/heat shield or a propped-up stand that may be out of place later, I'm really liking madison's idea of putting a new/proper thimble through the wall where the horse picture is.

So, here's what I'm thinking in terms of configuration (any thoughts?) - Switch stove to top discharge of smoke. Double wall pipe to thimble higher on the wall, using 45's for the best possible slope. Oval liner in the chimney, and insulation around it.

If anyone has photos of stoves with 45's like this, I'd like to see them as well - will help with sale of the concept to my wife.

This will be more of a job than I will want to attempt myself, so I will want to locate a qualified contractor/installer or two in the Lansing/St. John's area. Feel free to PM me with thoughts on that. I've got a guy in mind, but he's booked up for the next three months or so. Would be nice to get started sooner, but we'll see. Main thing is for it to be done right, not quick.

 

[begreen]

Smoke, the opposite of water, does not like to run downhill. Even a level connector can preset a problem on some stoves. Horiz. runs should always be as short as possible and pitched uphill toward the chimney.

 

[Renovation]

So, here's what I'm thinking in terms of configuration (any thoughts?) - Switch stove to top discharge of smoke. Double wall pipe to thimble higher on the wall, using 45's for the best possible slope. Oval liner in the chimney, and insulation around it.

Main thing is for it to be done right, not quick.

Sounds grrreat to me, and a real improvement. I've heard you should make sure your liner is compatible your insulation. IIRC, there are insulated liners, doing both in one step, if you are replacing the whole thing.

 

[JV_Thimble]

Sounds grrreat to me, and a real improvement. I've heard you should make sure your liner is compatible your insulation. IIRC, there are insulated liners, doing both in one step, if you are replacing the whole thing.

Thanks, reason for the oval liner is to keep the existing ceramic liner in place - I don't see a need to take that out. I think you're right about liners as well, some are insulated and some you wrap or pour vermiculite around.

 

[Renovation]

? 1st post reads ..."my ‘horizontal’ run to a ceramic lined masonry chimney"
Anyway, picture worth a thousand words....

Apologies for going off topic, but that floor knocks me out. Spectacular.

 

[Renovation]

Sounds grrreat to me, and a real improvement. I've heard you should make sure your liner is compatible your insulation. IIRC, there are insulated liners, doing both in one step, if you are replacing the whole thing.

Thanks, reason for the oval liner is to keep the existing ceramic liner in place - I don't see a need to take that out. I think you're right about liners as well, some are insulated and some you wrap or pour vermiculite around.

Ah, great. I wanted to make sure you know. Good luck, and please let us know how it works out for you. I like hearing the outcome.

 

[madison]

FYI and accuracy, the picture is not mine, it was "googled" in an attempt to convey my thoughts on revamping the OP's current setup and raising the thimble.

 

[Renovation]

FYI and accuracy, the picture is not mine, it was "googled" in an attempt to convey my thoughts on revamping the OP's current setup and raising the thimble.

Thanks, and sorry for hijacking for no reason. A nice hardwood floor gets me all happy and addled. Stay warm!