Scary response from VC dealer

[Ashful]

I called our local Vermont Castings dealer to ask about the hearth extension requirements on the VC Encore 2n1. Specifically, whether the hearth extension had to meet the same R = 1.18 value as the flooring directly beneath the stove, as I'll be setting whatever stove I purchase into a fireplace, and will need to build a hearth extension in front of the fireplace. The answer I received was, "You can't really go by the numbers in the manual, because that's based on EPA testing with very dry wood, usually oak, and the stove will put out a lot more heat than the EPA test."

Knowing they had somehow misinterpreted my question about hearth extension insulation with the heat output of the stove, I tried rephasing it, and this time was told, "You just have to put the stove on top of a non-combustable material at least 1/4" thick."

Huh?

I tried searching for a telephone number so that I could call VC direct, and talk with someone who actually knows their stoves, particularly since my install poses some challenges not remotely covered in the manual. I could not find any contact info for the company on their web site. I guess they don't want to talk to their customers?

 

[Jags]

Call the dealer back up and tell them that you have a question for their installer. You might get a better answer.

 

[Highbeam]

There's a reason that many of us have black listed VC. The bad dealer is independent of the bad company, but is perhaps a sign.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I tried searching for a telephone number so that I could call VC direct, and talk with someone who actually knows their stoves, particularly since my install poses some challenges not remotely covered in the manual. I could not find any contact info for the company on their web site. I guess they don't want to talk to their customers?

Getting a hold of the corporate office is like trying to speak with the Wizard of Oz. It's a long trip, lots of aggravation, and little resolve. The dealers (Winged Monkeys, to keep the Oz metaphors going) also have a bad reputation for not being helpful.

There is a VC dealer that posts here that is a pretty good guy, it seems. He runs an Ace Hardware store that sells VC stoves. Try to contact him. I forget his name.

 

[begreen]

Some stoves get the floor in front of the stove hotter than underneath the stove due to the shielding action of the ashpan. The dealer/installer can say whatever they want. It's what is printed in the manual that the inspector and insurance company will go by. The answer is that you need the full hearth insulation spec out 16" (18" Canada) from the stove door.

 

[KaptJaq]

I agree with begreen, the R value of 1.18 needs to go the full 16/18 inches from the front as per the manual. If you still have questions you might try these e-mail addresses:

[email protected]
[email protected]

These were still active as of December, 2011.

Please be specific with the model and your question, a well worded question usually gets a prompt reply.

KaptJaq

 

[Ashful]

Call the dealer back up and tell them that you have a question for their installer. You might get a better answer.

That was how I started the conversation, to which I received the response, "I can answer your questions."

Try to contact him. I forget his name.

Umm...

It's what is printed in the manual that the inspector and insurance company will go by. The answer is that you need the full hearth insulation spec out 16" (18" Canada) from the stove door.

That was my interpretation as well, but since that particular issue may disqualify this stove, I wanted to be sure. As soon as we can find a chimney solution which will make the installer and code enforcement happy, I'll be tearing into the floor forward of the hearth. Until then, my working assumption is that our hearth extension will provide ember protection only. The catalytic stove options are not looking good!

If you still have questions you might try these e-mail addresses:

[email protected]
[email protected]

Thanks!

 

[Blue Vomit]

There is a VC dealer that posts here that is a pretty good guy, it seems. He runs an Ace Hardware store that sells VC stoves. Try to contact him. I forget his name.

Jay Clark
Clarkes ACE Hardware

 

[elmoleaf]

Per the manual at http://literature.mhsc.com/vermont_castings/manuals/30005295_Encore_2N1_9.pdf

​

Floor Protection​

A tremendous amount of heat radiates from the bottom plate of your stove. The floor area directly under and around the stove will require protection from radiant heat as well as from stray sparks or embers that may escape the firebox.​

​

Heat protection is provided with the use of the Bottom Heat Shield supplied with the stove.​

​

Most installations will require the bottom heat shield to be attached. Only when the stove is placed on a completely noncombustible surface such as unpainted concrete over earth may it be used without the heat shield.​

​

Even when the bottom heat shield are installed, most installations require special thermal protection (insulation) for the floor beneath. Use an approved 1" (25 mm) noncombustible hearth pad with k = 0.84 BTU/in ft​

​

...​

Floor Protection for Fireplace Installation​

​

Do not assume that your fireplace hearth is completely noncombustible. Many fireplace hearths do not satisfy the "completely noncombustible" requirement because the brick or concrete in front of the fireplace opening is supported by heavy wood framing. Because heat passes readily through brick or concrete, it can easily pass through to the wood. As a result, such fireplace hearths can be a fire hazard and are considered a combustible floor.​

​

For all fireplace installations, follow the floor protection guidelines described above, including the need for a bottom shield. Keep in mind that many raised hearths will extend less than the required clearance from the front of the heater. In such cases, sufficient floor protection as described above must be added in front of the hearth to satisfy the minimum floor protector requirement from the front of the stove: 16" (410 mm) in the United States and 18" (460 mm) in Canada. Hearth rugs do not satisfy the requirement for floor protection as they are not fire proof.​

​

Fireplace installations also have special clearance requirements to the side walls, side decorative trim and fireplace mantel. Refer to the information on fireplace and mantel trim shields in this section.​

​

 

[BrowningBAR]

Jay Clark
Clarkes ACE Hardware

That's the guy. I knew someone would chime in with that.

 

[rdust]

The catalytic stove options are not looking good!

BK stoves only require ember protection, sorry I had too!

 

[Ashful]

Per the manual at...

Precisely why I titled the thread "scary". I had already read the manual, but just wanted to confirm my interpretation with the dealer.

Jay Clark
Clarkes ACE Hardware

Thanks! I'll get in touch with him.

There's a reason that many of us have black listed VC. The bad dealer is independent of the bad company, but is perhaps a sign.

I had thought most of their problems were a result of the few years the company was owned by CFM, and that MHS was doing a lot to right all of those wrongs. The reviews I've read of the newer Encore and Defiant 2-in-1 stoves are much better than what I've read about earlier versions of these two stoves.

Looking into the Dutchwest 2461 now. On down the list...

 

[BrowningBAR]

Looking into the Dutchwest 2461 now. On down the list...

Dutchwest is owned by the same company and has the same dealer chain. No different between Dutchwest and VC in terms of customer service, dealer support, and parts.

 

[Ashful]

Dutchwest is owned by the same company and has the same dealer chain. No different between Dutchwest and VC in terms of customer service, dealer support, and parts.

Yep, noticed that when browsing the respective web sites. Kinda makes me scratch my head when I see folks bashing VC and praising Dutchwest in the same thread.

In terms of the dealer, I met one idiot at the local Jotul dealer, as well. In that case, I visited another time and met another salesperson who actually understood their product. I'm guessing it's the same case here, with the VC dealer I called yesterday.

Is my interpretation of VC history correct, in terms of CFM and MHS. I suppose CFM never owned Dutchwest? What's your impression of MHS management? I can dig up lots of old posts on VC's support and service, but those were from the CFM days, and I'm not sure any of the comments are valid today.


Thanks!

 

[KaptJaq]

...Is my interpretation of VC history correct, in terms of CFM and MHS. I suppose CFM never owned Dutchwest? What's your impression of MHS management? I can dig up lots of old posts on VC's support and service, but those were from the CFM days, and I'm not sure any of the comments are valid today.

Hi Joful,

I bought my VC Montpelier insert in December 2009. This was after the MHSC purchase. About a year later I had a problem with the fan on the unit and contacted my dealer. He came, inspected, and told me there was no problem. I used the contact form that was on the VC site and, based on my description, they sent an e-mail to the dealer to replace the fan unit. The dealer tried to charge me $189 to order the fan (called it a "service charge") and an additional $149 to install it. Sent a copy of his letter to VC and got a call from the dealer that the service charge was a mistake. VC also sent me step by step instructions on how to install the fan. If I did it myself there would be no install charge.

I have had no problems with support directly from VC. Their dealer network is hit or miss.

The contact form that was on the VC site is now on the MHSC site:

http://mhsc.com/contact.html

KaptJaq

 

[begreen]

Yep, noticed that when browsing the respective web sites. Kinda makes me scratch my head when I see folks bashing VC and praising Dutchwest in the same thread.

In terms of the dealer, I met one idiot at the local Jotul dealer, as well. In that case, I visited another time and met another salesperson who actually understood their product. I'm guessing it's the same case here, with the VC dealer I called yesterday.

Is my interpretation of VC history correct, in terms of CFM and MHS. I suppose CFM never owned Dutchwest? What's your impression of MHS management? I can dig up lots of old posts on VC's support and service, but those were from the CFM days, and I'm not sure any of the comments are valid today.


Thanks!

Most issues with VCs in the past 20 years have been with their neverburn systems which are often finicky to run and need a frequent rebuild due to the fragile refractory assembly. Their cat stoves have been pretty good workhorses and reliable. They seem to go about 10+ years before needing a rebuild.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Is my interpretation of VC history correct, in terms of CFM and MHS. I suppose CFM never owned Dutchwest? What's your impression of MHS management? I can dig up lots of old posts on VC's support and service, but those were from the CFM days, and I'm not sure any of the comments are valid today.

I have bought all my stoves used. I do not worry about customer service or dealer support. I worry about parts availability. VC cat stoves require more maintenance when compared to other stove manufacturers and require more parts, but I factored this in on my purchases.

I've been around here long enough to read frustrations about PE, Jotul, Quadrafire, Napoleon, Hearthstone and others, when it comes to customer support at the corporate level. VC isn't much different at this point.

In regards to dealer support, the best dealer around me is a VC dealer. That is not in defense of VC, but more of a coincidence. A lot of dealers I have come across are quite sub-par, offer bad advice, and lack a lot of knowledge when it comes to their product.

 

[Ashful]

In regards to dealer support, the best dealer around me is a VC dealer.

Dublin, or someone else?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Dublin, or someone else?

Dublin is the fella. The owner is a pretty good guy, it seems, and is honest and knowledgeable about VC stoves. He's worked with me in finding parts previously for an older Intrepid and was very upfront about past VC stoves and the expectations of the new 2-in1 designs.

 

[Highbeam]

If the dutchwest cat stoves were really that good then you would see many more folks running them. The DW cat stoves suffer from operational difficulty, fragile insides, and short burn times. Plus, they're a VC product.

The VCs always did look very nice.

 

[tfdchief]

Some stoves get the floor in front of the stove hotter than underneath the stove due to the shielding action of the ashpan. The dealer/installer can say whatever they want. It's what is printed in the manual that the inspector and insurance company will go by. The answer is that you need the full hearth insulation spec out 16" (18" Canada) from the stove door.

Being an inspector, I would agree with that. However, it is not always that simple. I can tell you that the Hampton H200 Manual and the UL label on the back of the stove have confusing if not conflicting information with regard to hearth protection.

 

[begreen]

Yeah, bad docs suck td. I bug companies with bad documentation frequently.

 

[tfdchief]

Yeah, bad docs suck td. I bug companies with bad documentation frequently.

Mistakes will be made in manuals of course, but the really frustrating part is when you call and get the run around. That is the part I don't understand.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. This is a place where Mike Holton's presence here has really helped. He been quick at getting Englander documentation fixed and improved.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Agreed. This is a place where Mike Holton's presence here has really helped. He been quick at getting Englander documentation fixed and improved.

thanks BG, fact of the matter though is i have an advantage , being a company which has very little 'bureaucracy" its easier for me to get things like that done than it could be in other larger companies.

of course the downside is that in order for me to "quickly fix" there has to be a discrepancy to start with, that said hanging out in here with the members is great for us as well so when somting like that comes up i know about it quickly and thus am able to make myself look good by doing somthing which is really not that big a deal to do.

still i'll take it as a complement anyway, my ego needs constant feeding