Selecting a Boiler - Please Share Your Experience

[Carprofessor]

Which boilers out there would you recommend? Why? Are there boilers to stay away from? What should I know about draft inducers verses natural daft. Is it just a matter of chimney length? Some manufacturers claim their parts are easy to get. Are some models hard to find parts for? Is there a clear choice of the best boiler for the money? I appreciate your opinions. Thanks.

Please read on, only if you want some background information!!

The situation
I live in eastern Ontario, just north of the US border. I built my house about 10 years old and well insulated. There are many large windows but they are as energy efficient as possible. The house is fairly large at just under 3000 sq. ft. including a finished basement with walkout.

I currently heat with a high efficiency fireplace on the main floor and in floor radiant heat via a propane boiler in the basement. I installed this myself and it works quite well with a 3-way mixing valve connected to an outdoor reset controlling the water temperature going into the floor.

I burn 3-4 cords of hardwood (mostly ash) each season and 1600L (425 US Gal) of propane. I buy my firewood in logs and cut and split it myself. My hope is that I can install a wood boiler that can take over from the propane boiler and also reduce the amount of wood that is going through my fireplace (which burns 20 hours per day).

I have an attached garage that I would like to heat slightly. There is an attached shed on the back of the garage that holds my firewood. There is enough room in there to place the boiler as well. Its about 10 x 30. The boiler would be on the other side of the basement wall from the propane boiler.

I have a hot tub I would like to heat. We use very little DHW

What I've learned so far...
From the posts I have read here I am estimating that a gasification boiler would consume about 5 cords of wood in a typical season. I also am convinced that thermal storage is very desirable. I've also learned that there is a very wide selection of boilers to chose from.

Selecting a Boiler
Many years ago I was considering a Greenwood Boiler. Sounds like it was a good thing I couldn't afford it then!

I have looked at the Empyre boiler. It looks good but I hear several people talking about leaks. I went to a dealer to see one. The only one he had to show me was a leaker he had recently replaced. Also, the Empyre is not pressurized and I would have to run a heat exchanger to tie into my existing boiler.

The Econoburn is very interesting due to it heavy construction (1/4 inch plate) and 25 year warranty, but a bit pricey.

I see many people post that they are using Vedolux boilers. I like the thought that went into designing an easy way to clean the heat exchangers. It is priced better than some and it seems to have a 1/4 plate steel firebox too. I have been looking at a Vedolux 37 that comes with a re-purposed 500 gal propane tank for the same price a an Econoburn (without storage).

I looked at the Garn JR. Interesting but too expensive.

I considered a pellet boiler but firewood is much cheaper than pellets and I hear people saying that they are becoming hard to get in some areas, which will make them even more expensive.

 

[maple1]

Sounds like you're learning a lot already - I'll have to admit that Greenwood was the first gassifying thing I stumbled onto on the net years ago too. Also glad I kept looking.

For me & the way I went, it came down to simplicity & ease of use. Less parts lessens the worry about replacement parts. I have no draft fans or controllers etc. for them, or even door gaskets. Just a loading unit wired through both an aquastat & flue stat. Less demanding in a power outage. Easy to clean. And it was reasonably priced compared to other options at the time. Some consider the lighter weight of the Varms a sign of weakness - I consider it a product of good engineering, but that's pretty much just opinion based. I can honestly say I would do it again, and would only turn to induced/forced draft if my chimney wasn't tall enough for natural.

There is no one right answer though - just make sure you consider all of your priorities, preferences, and personal/site specific situations. There are quite a few very good boilers out there to chose from and lots to read about all of them right here.

 

[Carprofessor]

Sounds like you're learning a lot already - I'll have to admit that Greenwood was the first gassifying thing I stumbled onto on the net years ago too. Also glad I kept looking.

For me & the way I went, it came down to simplicity & ease of use. Less parts lessens the worry about replacement parts. I have no draft fans or controllers etc. for them, or even door gaskets. Just a loading unit wired through both an aquastat & flue stat. Less demanding in a power outage. Easy to clean. And it was reasonably priced compared to other options at the time. Some consider the lighter weight of the Varms a sign of weakness - I consider it a product of good engineering, but that's pretty much just opinion based. I can honestly say I would do it again, and would only turn to induced/forced draft if my chimney wasn't tall enough for natural.

There is no one right answer though - just make sure you consider all of your priorities, preferences, and personal/site specific situations. There are quite a few very good boilers out there to chose from and lots to read about all of them right here.

Thanks Maple1, Did you have any issues bringing the unit into Canada? I don't think the "Varm's" are made in the US and wonder if they are subject to some other duties, not just CDN taxes. Right now I leaning toward the Vedolux 37 because there is a well-priced package that includes a 500 gal storage tank. It has the draft inducer so I might be committed to using it. This means I can use a shorter chimney too, doesn't it?

What's involved in "repurposing" a propane tank? Is it just a matter of welding fittings on it? Or are coils placed inside. I might be better getting a tank locally rather than trying to bring one over.

 

[GENECOP]

The Greenwoods are being sold off cheap right now, under $3000...proper installation and use is important with all boilers but I think Greenwoods are a little more finicky than other brands...I love our Greenwood 100, and so do many others....Woodgun gets a lot of positive press as does Kuma....

 

[maple1]

Aside from coming up with the $$ for customs & freight - no issues. I sent a bank draft to Smokeless for everything that included that, and it showed at my driveway a week later. I even think it got here before my bank draft got there, actually. So no worries from my experience in such a long distance large transaction with them. There were no other surprise bills that showed up for things like extra taxes - except for the big exchange hit at the bank when you go get your bank draft. All told for customs, freight, and the exchange hit when I bought (I think our dollar was close to 0.95 at the time), I think amounted to pretty close to an extra $2k for those.

Yes, boilers with fans can use shorter chimneys - that's a possible hangup with mine, you need a tall chimney. Mine is 30', I likely could get by with a shorter one, but I'm not sure how much shorter - maybe not a whole lot. I think I have my baro adjusted to max draft, and it holds steady at 0.1" when burning. Spec is 0.08". I didn't do any pipe joint sealing, and have what amounts to 3-90s from the back of the boiler to where it goes straight up the chimney.

No coils, piped direct as part of the near-boiler stuff. I just picked my tanks up at the scrap yard, and delivered them to my pro welders shop along with fittings I picked up at the supplier. I marked them up with a marker re. what to put where, and left them a sketch. I have only one word of advice on that process - try to make sure the fittings you get are NOT cast fittings. My supplier had cast mixed in all in the same bins, I found out later. My untrained eye couldn't tell the difference. My welder had to come to my place with his portable to fix a couple pinholes. OK, two words of advice - use a pro welder who does pressure work. My guy was, and he's ASME certified - he stood behind his (or I guess his guys actually) work, and it paid off in the end. OK, three - keep new holes & fittings to a minimum.

 

[salecker]

Hi Carprofessor
I have an Econoburn 200 in a separate building with 1000 gal storage,two re purposed propane tanks i got for free.
After 3 yrs Econoburn replaced the controller N/C.I will have to replace the nozzle in between the firebox's this summer.They have great customer service.It was on my shortlist from reading on here before i knew there was a local dealer.
If i was to do it again,with what i know the Econoburn would still be on my shortlist.I might be swayed to the Garn because of it's track record, simplicity and efficiency.The Econoburn is simple enough that i ran it with a bad controller for 2 1/2 months.I had to take the fan load off the controller,and run it on an extension cord.With my setup i just batch burn till the storage is to temp,and if the controller were to quit completely i could set the boiler up to run completely without the controller.
But i do know that i would not put a wood fired boiler in my house.The main reasons are still the same we were worried about fire,carbon monoxide,and both my wife and daughter have asthma.But the mess that comes with wood.....My boiler room was painted bright white when i built it,not so much anymore.I realize that i may be a little lax about the smoke in the boiler room,doesn't matter as much.But the ash and wood debris would get throughout the house no matter how careful you were.
Our biggest piece of mind is no fire source in our house.For some reason the building inspector still figures we should have carbon monoxide detectors?We have a volunteer fire department in our area.
Just seen that you are in Brockville,one of my friends from here moved to Brockville last year.I could give you his number he has seen my system.
Thomas

 

[Carprofessor]

Aside from coming up with the $$ for customs & freight - no issues. I sent a bank draft to Smokeless for everything that included that, and it showed at my driveway a week later. I even think it got here before my bank draft got there, actually. So no worries from my experience in such a long distance large transaction with them. There were no other surprise bills that showed up for things like extra taxes - except for the big exchange hit at the bank when you go get your bank draft. All told for customs, freight, and the exchange hit when I bought (I think our dollar was close to 0.95 at the time), I think amounted to pretty close to an extra $2k for those.

Yes, boilers with fans can use shorter chimneys - that's a possible hangup with mine, you need a tall chimney. Mine is 30', I likely could get by with a shorter one, but I'm not sure how much shorter - maybe not a whole lot. I think I have my baro adjusted to max draft, and it holds steady at 0.1" when burning. Spec is 0.08". I didn't do any pipe joint sealing, and have what amounts to 3-90s from the back of the boiler to where it goes straight up the chimney.

No coils, piped direct as part of the near-boiler stuff. I just picked my tanks up at the scrap yard, and delivered them to my pro welders shop along with fittings I picked up at the supplier. I marked them up with a marker re. what to put where, and left them a sketch. I have only one word of advice on that process - try to make sure the fittings you get are NOT cast fittings. My supplier had cast mixed in all in the same bins, I found out later. My untrained eye couldn't tell the difference. My welder had to come to my place with his portable to fix a couple pinholes. OK, two words of advice - use a pro welder who does pressure work. My guy was, and he's ASME certified - he stood behind his (or I guess his guys actually) work, and it paid off in the end. OK, three - keep new holes & fittings to a minimum.

Thanks for the tips. That's the best thing about this site.. learning from the experiences of others.

I'm not quite clear what the expense labelled "customs" is. If I go across the border to buy something I don't expect to pay anything to bring it back, other than Canadian tax. Was there a tariff you had to pay because you were bringing in something that was not made in the US? If I have something shipped to Canada from the US there is sometimes a brokerage fee. Is that what you are referring to? I live quite close to Ogdensburg NY and would consider having the boiler shipped there and bring it over myself to avoid brokerage fees. Also, shipping is often a lot cheaper if it is not international.

Is a draft inducer and a suction fan the same thing? I just read this at www.smokelessheat.com;

Because the stack temperatures with the natural draft boilers offered by Varmebaronen need to be about 50-100 degrees higher than their suction fan counterparts the efficiency level for the natural draft boiler is 5-10% lower than the suction fan models.

This loss, plus the expense of a longer chimney seems to make the suction fan model a better choice. Are there any cons to a suction fan other than the power consumption and another part that may need replacing? Doesn't the suction fan control the draft more accurately than relying solely on the draw of a chimney?

 

[flyingcow]

There is another dealer AHONA. They are located less than 200 miles from you. Mark is the owner, i met him once. A lot of knowledge and experience. He also might be able to give you info on crossing the border with a new unit.

Also, i have a solo Innova 30. Nice unit. Very simple to operate. The main reason I bought a Tarm is my installer had good things to say about Tarm and their products. That's mainly why i bought this unit. And my unpressurized storage works very well. It's a 820 gal tank that I assembled in about 2 hours in my basement. No need for big access doors to basement, everything fits thru a regular door.

 

[flyingcow]

The boiler I have has a neg draft fan. Basically no smoke roll out when you open the door.

 

[Carprofessor]

Hi Carprofessor
I have an Econoburn 200 in a separate building with 1000 gal storage,two re purposed propane tanks i got for free.
After 3 yrs Econoburn replaced the controller N/C.I will have to replace the nozzle in between the firebox's this summer.They have great customer service.It was on my shortlist from reading on here before i knew there was a local dealer.
If i was to do it again,with what i know the Econoburn would still be on my shortlist.I might be swayed to the Garn because of it's track record, simplicity and efficiency.The Econoburn is simple enough that i ran it with a bad controller for 2 1/2 months.I had to take the fan load off the controller,and run it on an extension cord.With my setup i just batch burn till the storage is to temp,and if the controller were to quit completely i could set the boiler up to run completely without the controller.
But i do know that i would not put a wood fired boiler in my house.The main reasons are still the same we were worried about fire,carbon monoxide,and both my wife and daughter have asthma.But the mess that comes with wood.....My boiler room was painted bright white when i built it,not so much anymore.I realize that i may be a little lax about the smoke in the boiler room,doesn't matter as much.But the ash and wood debris would get throughout the house no matter how careful you were.
Our biggest piece of mind is no fire source in our house.For some reason the building inspector still figures we should have carbon monoxide detectors?We have a volunteer fire department in our area.
Just seen that you are in Brockville,one of my friends from here moved to Brockville last year.I could give you his number he has seen my system.
Thomas

Hi Thomas,

I would like to talk to you friend. Can you PM me with his name and number? Where did you find a local dealer? Econoburn said they would deal with me directly as there were no dealers in the Brockville area.

I agree with your assessment of not having this inside your house. My plan is to put a boiler in my woodshed, which is a 10x 30 room off the back of my attached garage. Not in the house, but I can still go out there in any weather, day or night, in just my slippers. With heat off the boiler, probably won't even need a jacket.

 

[flyingcow]

When I was looking at boilers, Dale at Econoburn was another good company to talk to. By all accts, stand up company.

My boiler is also separate from my house. I do have to put boots and a coat on some days. But with storage(located 100ft from boiler in my basement), I usually don't need a fire more than once a day. So when I or my kids come home in the afternoon, we start a fire before going into house. Plus, there is always someone going out at least once a night for whatever reason. If needed, we will refill at that time. Not many special trips just to fill the boiler. For me, I like this setup. \

Also note my Avatar pic. I have a tractor with a FEL, all my wood is stacked on pallets. My boiler is in the back of an unattached garage. Open overhead door and put pallets in. Also, next yrs wood is sitting outside, in these 3 sided pallets.

 

[maple1]

Thanks for the tips. That's the best thing about this site.. learning from the experiences of others.

I'm not quite clear what the expense labelled "customs" is. If I go across the border to buy something I don't expect to pay anything to bring it back, other than Canadian tax. Was there a tariff you had to pay because you were bringing in something that was not made in the US? If I have something shipped to Canada from the US there is sometimes a brokerage fee. Is that what you are referring to? I live quite close to Ogdensburg NY and would consider having the boiler shipped there and bring it over myself to avoid brokerage fees. Also, shipping is often a lot cheaper if it is not international.

Is a draft inducer and a suction fan the same thing? I just read this at www.smokelessheat.com;

Because the stack temperatures with the natural draft boilers offered by Varmebaronen need to be about 50-100 degrees higher than their suction fan counterparts the efficiency level for the natural draft boiler is 5-10% lower than the suction fan models.

This loss, plus the expense of a longer chimney seems to make the suction fan model a better choice. Are there any cons to a suction fan other than the power consumption and another part that may need replacing? Doesn't the suction fan control the draft more accurately than relying solely on the draw of a chimney?

Sorry, yes - should have said brokerage fees. I don't think there was actually any duty on it. I'm not sure now where my paperwork for that part is. I am sure you could save some money if you brought it across yourself - even more if you drove to PA to pick it up. That was a bit much for me from here. Inducer = suction, yes. Pulls air through. As opposed to forced draft, which pushes it through. I'm not sure on the efficiency differences - I'll have to go with what is stated there since I just don't know any better. I don't think I am running much higher flue temps though that the fan ones do - typically see in the 200c range, maybe 225. Maybe with a shorter chimney than I have I'd have to burn hotter to get the required draft? I just know what I'm doing & seeing with what I have. Fan may have more accurate control, yes. But mine sort of self controls - as the fire dies, the draft does too, so it's kind of like an automatic end of burn fan shut down. Kind of a turbocharger vs. supercharger thing. Pros & cons as with anything, some of them come down to the eyes of the beholder.

 

[sjfrench]

I'm new to the wood boiler world, but I've been blown away by the savings from my Garn.

Sure...I've got $25k in the entire system (Garn, Garn building, very nice 12x24 wood shed, and Garn installation), but dang...my electric bills have dropped like crazy.

We heat about 8500sqft. When we bought the house, it was all electric for the heat here in SW MO. I called the electric company and they told us that the previous occupants averaged about $1000 per month for electric in the winter (Nov-March). This amount was averaged over four years, so we had a pretty good indication of what the montly bills would be.

This is our first winter in the house, and we have been pleasantly surprised. We are heating the house and DHW. Our bills have dropped from $1000 to:
January $249
February $212

Needless to say...I love my Garn!

 

[Tennman]

Sorry, haven't read all the posts in case someone else made this point. You should add up all the pieces necessary to assemble a standalone boiler with storage (like mine) and add labor vs the Garn Jr and I'll bet you'll be surprised. Then spread that difference across the number of years for your ROI or better yet years you intend to use it/live there. For those with radiant the Garn customer satisfaction is pretty amazing.

Doing just a boiler for Phase 1 let my wife and I learn if we could live with a wood heating lifestyle. Now adding storage as Phase 2 so it's been nice to spread the expenses, but if I add up all my components, storage tanks, foaming of tanks, pumps, piping, valves, labor, logistics, I'm real close if not over just buying a Garn. Hard to swallow that big hit, but it's a one time hit and if you'd heating expenses are as bad as mine were, the ROI is pretty amazing. So why didn't I go Garn? Our home is forced air and needs higher temps for long duct runs.

As an observer here for about 6 years, Garn has an amazing customer satisfaction rating. Take your time, you'll spend a lot of time with your decision. Best wishes.

 

[Fred61]

I only have hands on operating experience with two gassers but I've been a loyal reader and contributor on this site since 2008. I've read about a myriad of problems and situations operators of these machines have endured. This background has basically created a list in my mind of boilers that I would consider if I were in the market for one. Of the acceptable units there is a sub category of boilers that best fit the application and not just the fact that they are better or worse. If I needed a new boiler right now I would purchase the same one I am now running because it perfectly fits the application although it is considered a "low end" boiler mostly because of the initial price. I'm just finishing my 6th heating season ( I hope ) and it has served me well.

In my mind both from operating experience and knowledge I've absorbed from the years here, these are the boilers I would stay away from: Wood Gun, Greenwood or other similar design, and Profab. Plus any OWB.

One more thing. Don't let the "forced" or "induced" draft sway you from getting the boiler that's right for you. Most here are promoting the set-up that they have and have no experience with others. Somewhere along the line they made up their mind that one was better than the other or were sold on a particular type by a good salesman. The real operation of the unit lies in the draw of the chimney and not the fan that most think is central to pushing gasses out the chimney except perhaps for the Garn.

 

[maple1]

'Somewhere along the line they made up their mind that one was better than the other'

I would add to that from what I went through - 'for their particular situation, priorities & preferences'. No doubt there is no one right choice for everyone - so make like a sponge & get your decision-making-weighing-scales out. With a touch of crystal ball.

(Someone else likely will, but I ain't touching that stay-away list )

 

[Coal Reaper]

(Someone else likely will, but I ain't touching that stay-away list )

wait for it, wait for it...

 

[Fred61]

Someone else likely will, but I ain't touching that stay-away list

wait for it, wait for it...

Just based on information that has been posted in these pages. The OP can do as he wishes. Would you buy one of them?

 

[Coal Reaper]

oh i would add a couple more to that list without ever having even seen them in person

 

[Gasifier]

wait for it, wait for it...

Heating a 4200 sq.ft. house, 900 sq.ft. garage, and all my DHW for showers, dishes, and the like. Performing great in it's third season in one of the coldest parts of the Northeast! E100 S.S. Wood Gun with 400 gallons of thermal storage.

 

[Gasifier]

There are a lot of good boilers out there Carprofessor. I would not hesitate to buy an Econoburn, Vedolux, HS Tarm (or their top of the line Froling.) Do storage at the beginning if you can. If you can't, pipe for it to be added in the future.

 

[flyingcow]

Heating a 4200 sq.ft. house, 900 sq.ft. garage, and all my DHW for showers, dishes, and the like. Performing great in it's third season in one of the coldest parts of the Northeast! E100 S.S. Wood Gun with 400 gallons of thermal storage.

Coldest part of the northeast? -20 this am. Got to watch those WG guys....stretch the truth

 

[Fred61]

Coldest part of the northeast? -20 this am. Got to watch those WG guys....stretch the truth

Got to defend Gasifier a little here.
Although northern Maine is no slouch when it comes to cold temperatures, Gasifier's back yard is running neck & neck or at least a close second to your backyard. Northern Adirondacks and St Lawrence Valley register some darn cold temperatures.

 

[Gasifier]

Coldest part of the northeast? -20 this am. Got to watch those WG guys....stretch the truth

Read what I wrote flying cow. Said one of the coldest parts of the northeast. -5 this morning at my house. We had a couple of days of -29 this season, and too many days way too far below zero. And we are, Ogdensburg and Massena, NY, one of the coldest parts of the Northeast on a regular basis. And I always keep an eye on anyone from Maine with unpressurized storage. Blaaaaaaaa.

 

[Gasifier]

Got to defend Gasifier a little here.
Although northern Maine is no slouch when it comes to cold temperatures, Gasifier's back yard is running neck & neck or at least a close second to your backyard. Northern Adirondacks and St Lawrence Valley register some darn cold temperatures.

Thanks Fred! I'm writing this down on my calendar right _ _ _ _ _ _ _ now!