Should I be concerned about my chimney liner?

[ijustwanttoburnthings]

Hi everyone.

I'm new (obviously...look at my post count), and after a quick browse of the forum rules and FAQ, I think it's okay to ask a few questions about my existing chimney liner. Hopefully it's not the type of thing that posters see a lot of and roll their eyes at, and if so, I apologize.

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone can offer some insight into the state of my chimney liner based on the below photos. I purchased a home several years ago, had the chimney inspected, and was told that it was unsafe to use the wood-burning open hearth fireplace. The reason: there are gaps between the terra cotta flue tiles. The tiles themselves are in decent shape, with no significant cracks, and if it matters at all, the exterior masonry and mortar of the chimney is in outstanding shape.

I've since learned that the chimney sweep I hired for the inspection also sells stainless steel liners (they recommended installing one to the tune of nearly $6,000), so I've become skeptical of their assessment. I'm still considering that route, but also want to know the full range of my options, and am wondering if others see evidence of a compromised chimney liner based on the photos. So, without further ado:



Thanks everyone, so much

 

[KennyK]

Welcome to Hearth.com! You'll find a ton of help here, and you shouldn't do anything before getting lots of input on this site, lest you set yourself to be ripped off, or worse yet, sold something inadequate, not up to code, unsafe, etc. and having to do it again!

First, it would help us to know a few things: How tall is your chimney? Do you know how big the flue is inner side to inner side? What are you hoping to use the chimney for? Are you looking to put in a wood stove or insert? Are you looking to just keep it as an open fireplace? Put in a pellet stove or insert? Each requires a different kind of liner. Most folks around here (myself included) would encourage you not to use it as an open fireplace, as with a wood stove or insert you can still have a beautiful view of a fire and generate lots of usable heat, which you simply won't do with an open fireplace as most of your heat goes up the chimney instead of into your house and you then loose more heat by having the flue damper open.

$6000 sounds outrageous regardless of your application and chimney height. I wanted to install a 30 foot, 6" stainless steel insulated liner (6" stainless insulated is usually, but not always, the standard for a wood stove). I got price estimates ranging from $2000 to $5000. Some of those didn't want to use an insulated liner, and who knows what kind of liner they were going to use (some are better quality and thicker than others), some told me I didn't need to bother with a permit, or should just pull a permit as a homeowner (not in their name meaning they wouldn't have any responsibility for a botched job that wasn't up to code). I ended up going with a super pro company that did things the right way, and gave me the paperwork necessary to pull the permit in their name (I went and got it, saving a charge of them getting it, but it was in their name), and it came out to $2200. Certainly glad I didn't go with the company that wanted $5000 for the same work, nor the company that wanted $3800, nor the company that wanted to charge the same rate but I had to practically force them to agree to use an insulated liner and they never returned my phone calls and they never gave me the paperwork to pull a permit (I suspect they might not have even possessed the necessary things they needed for a permit!).

Good luck and you've come to right place!

 

[bholler]

Hi everyone.

I'm new (obviously...look at my post count), and after a quick browse of the forum rules and FAQ, I think it's okay to ask a few questions about my existing chimney liner. Hopefully it's not the type of thing that posters see a lot of and roll their eyes at, and if so, I apologize.

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone can offer some insight into the state of my chimney liner based on the below photos. I purchased a home several years ago, had the chimney inspected, and was told that it was unsafe to use the wood-burning open hearth fireplace. The reason: there are gaps between the terra cotta flue tiles. The tiles themselves are in decent shape, with no significant cracks, and if it matters at all, the exterior masonry and mortar of the chimney is in outstanding shape.

I've since learned that the chimney sweep I hired for the inspection also sells stainless steel liners (they recommended installing one to the tune of nearly $6,000), so I've become skeptical of their assessment. I'm still considering that route, but also want to know the full range of my options, and am wondering if others see evidence of a compromised chimney liner based on the photos. So, without further ado:

View attachment 225828 View attachment 225829 View attachment 225830 View attachment 225831 View attachment 225832

Thanks everyone, so much

Yes there are gaps for sure and because of that it should be lined. Now the wuestion is do you want to line it for the open fireplace or do you want to install an insert and a much smaller liner. The cost of the insert and 6" liner will be more but not by a whole lot and it will provide you with useable heat which the fireplace wont.

 

[bholler]

Welcome to Hearth.com! You'll find a ton of help here, and you shouldn't do anything before getting lots of input on this site, lest you set yourself to be ripped off, or worse yet, sold something inadequate, not up to code, unsafe, etc. and having to do it again!

First, it would help us to know a few things: How tall is your chimney? Do you know how big the flue is inner side to inner side? What are you hoping to use the chimney for? Are you looking to put in a wood stove or insert? Are you looking to just keep it as an open fireplace? Put in a pellet stove or insert? Each requires a different kind of liner. Most folks around here (myself included) would encourage you not to use it as an open fireplace, as with a wood stove or insert you can still have a beautiful view of a fire and generate lots of usable heat, which you simply won't do with an open fireplace as most of your heat goes up the chimney instead of into your house and you then loose more heat by having the flue damper open.

$6000 sounds outrageous regardless of your application and chimney height. I wanted to install a 30 foot, 6" stainless steel insulated liner (6" stainless insulated is usually, but not always, the standard for a wood stove). I got price estimates ranging from $2000 to $5000. Some of those didn't want to use an insulated liner, and who knows what kind of liner they were going to use (some are better quality and thicker than others), some told me I didn't need to bother with a permit, or should just pull a permit as a homeowner (not in their name meaning they wouldn't have any responsibility for a botched job that wasn't up to code). I ended up going with a super pro company that did things the right way, and gave me the paperwork necessary to pull the permit in their name (I went and got it, saving a charge of them getting it, but it was in their name), and it came out to $2200. Certainly glad I didn't go with the company that wanted $5000 for the same work, nor the company that wanted $3800, nor the company that wanted to charge the same rate but I had to practically force them to agree to use an insulated liner and they never returned my phone calls and they never gave me the paperwork to pull a permit (I suspect they might not have even possessed the necessary things they needed for a permit!).

Good luck and you've come to right place!

$6000 may not be that high if it is being lined as an open fireplace depending on the height whether the clay liners need removed the size of the liner the condition of the smoke chamber etc. It is certainly is higher than most we do for open fireplaces. But without knowing more there is no way to know if it is unreasonable.

 

[begreen]

The price seems high, but we don't know what the sweep was proposing. I'm going to assume the sweep intended to install a much larger ss liner than 6".

ijwbt - What exactly was included in the proposal? Have you considered putting a stove in the fireplace or an insert and connecting that to a smaller liner?

 

[ijustwanttoburnthings]

Thanks for the initial replies. Some additional information:

--the $6k quote included a stainless steel liner (for the existing open hearth fireplace, so yes, a larger 10" liner was quoted), insulation, and a new chimney cap for materials. Other costs included removing the existing clay tiles, scaffolding, and of course, labor. Also, it's a full two-story chimney (the quote was for a 22' liner). I'm not sure of the existing clay tile dimensions...I assume they'd need to be removed to accommodate a 10" liner, and that with a 6" liner it'd be possible to just keep the existing tiles in place, install the liner within them, and avoid the removal cost?

The options I'm considering are:

1) doing nothing (i.e., continuing to not use the fireplace)

2) having a wood burning insert installed with a smaller stainless steel liner

3) having a larger stainless steel liner installed so the existing open hearth fireplace can be used

4) having a cast-in-place liner installed (something like this)

5) using the fireplace as-is

It sounds like option 5 isn't a possibility due to the deteriorated mortar in the joints between the tiles. I haven't deeply researched option 4, and don't know if my chimney is a good candidate for it...I've read that it can be cheaper than installing a new liner, which would make it an appealing option, if possible.

If it comes down to 1-3, it'll depend on how long we want to stay in the house. If we're thinking of moving within a few years, we'll probably do nothing. If we'll stay for a while, we'll probably go with option 2 because we could recoup some savings on the heating bill (we're in a northern climate). Option 3 seems far-fetched unless it's substantially cheaper than option 2, which appears unlikely.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the initial replies. Some additional information:

--the $6k quote included a stainless steel liner (for the existing open hearth fireplace, so yes, a larger 10" liner was quoted), insulation, and a new chimney cap for materials. Other costs included removing the existing clay tiles, scaffolding, and of course, labor. Also, it's a full two-story chimney (the quote was for a 22' liner). I'm not sure of the existing clay tile dimensions...I assume they'd need to be removed to accommodate a 10" liner, and that with a 6" liner it'd be possible to just keep the existing tiles in place, install the liner within them, and avoid the removal cost?

The options I'm considering are:

1) doing nothing (i.e., continuing to not use the fireplace)

2) having a wood burning insert installed with a smaller stainless steel liner

3) having a larger stainless steel liner installed so the existing open hearth fireplace can be used

4) having a cast-in-place liner installed (something like this)

5) using the fireplace as-is

It sounds like option 5 isn't a possibility due to the deteriorated mortar in the joints between the tiles. I haven't deeply researched option 4, and don't know if my chimney is a good candidate for it...I've read that it can be cheaper than installing a new liner, which would make it an appealing option, if possible.

If it comes down to 1-3, it'll depend on how long we want to stay in the house. If we're thinking of moving within a few years, we'll probably do nothing. If we'll stay for a while, we'll probably go with option 2 because we could recoup some savings on the heating bill (we're in a northern climate). Option 3 seems far-fetched unless it's substantially cheaper than option 2, which appears unlikely.

Heat sheild like you linked to is not a cast inplace liner it is a resurfacing system. Honestly it has not been on the market long enough to get a sense of the durability of it. But i am sceptical.

 

[begreen]

Thanks. I was wondering if the bid included tile removal and insulation. That helps explain some of the cost. Have you asked for a quote on the Heat Shield system? Does their warranty stay with the house if it is sold?

 

[KennyK]

@bholler, @begreen and others here are pros and can give you lots of great advice. I'm just a homeowner who got into using a wood burning stove this winter, which I love, and have learned a thing or two (or ten) from the people here on this site. I can tell you as a homeowner, however, rule out option 5. Once again, when you're tempted to ask yourself, "what could be the harm of a little fire or two?", remind yourself, "no way!" I bought my home seven years ago, and it had a beautiful, completely unlined, masonry chimney. I went six years without having a fire even though the temptation was great (I think once or twice i burned a duralog in there). It simply isn't worth the risk. I would think seriously about putting a wood stove in front of your fireplace (that would be my choice) or fireplace insert. I think you could realistically do either of these with a full, insulated liner for the $4000 ballpark.

 

[jetsam]

If you want the fireplace to provide heat, your only option is #2. Even if you fix up the open fireplace perfectly, it is still a 10" hole in your roof blasting heated air out of the house, and contributing little when it's lit (and nothing when it's not).

 

[begreen]

If the intent is to sell the home in a few years the issue seems to be resale. A chimney needing work is most likely going to cost you at the time of sale.

Ask a realtor what is most desirable in your area, an open fireplace or one with an insert?

If an open fireplace is best for resale and the Heat Shield warranty stays with the house in the event of sale, and it is reasonably priced, then it seems worth getting a quote and references from local customers, especially customers that have had this work done a while ago. My guess is that it will be in the $2500-3000 range. That is assuming they have an installer in your area. Expect that they may also try to upsell their other products and services which may take you close to the sweep's quote.

If an insert is desirable, then there are some decent units for under or around $2000. Figure ~$2.5K for liner and insert installation.

 

[ijustwanttoburnthings]

Thanks. I was wondering if the bid included tile removal and insulation. That helps explain some of the cost. Have you asked for a quote on the Heat Shield system? Does their warranty stay with the house if it is sold?

I haven't, and am unsure if it anyone even offers it in our area. It's surprisingly difficult to find reviews/cost information online, too, but it's something I'm going to explore once the weather warms up.

To clarify my thoughts on resale: I'm not worried that the chimney's current state will reduce the sale value (we're in a very seller-friendly market and an unusable fireplace won't sour a deal or demand a price reduction), but just wonder whether investing $2-6k in the fireplace will increase the value enough to recoup the cost. Unless it'd add close to the same amount in sale value, we may prefer to just have that money at our disposal instead.

If it makes financial sense, my preference is for a wood-burning insert. We'd use it a lot more since it'd actually help heat the house (rather than suck the heat out!), and it'd make me feel a lot more comfortable with a little kid running around! The only hangup is that my wife really likes the "charm" of an open fire and its sounds, smell, etc...but that's my cross to bear

Man, thanks to everyone for all the information. I have to say, it's pretty awesome how friendly and helpful everyone's been! Initially, all I was hoping to learn was whether the inspector was giving me a good assessment or just trying to upsell me on a steel liner, but all of the additional feedback has been very valuable, too.

 

[bholler]

I haven't, and am unsure if it anyone even offers it in our area. It's surprisingly difficult to find reviews/cost information online, too, but it's something I'm going to explore once the weather warms up.

To clarify my thoughts on resale: I'm not worried that the chimney's current state will reduce the sale value (we're in a very seller-friendly market and an unusable fireplace won't sour a deal or demand a price reduction), but just wonder whether investing $2-6k in the fireplace will increase the value enough to recoup the cost. Unless it'd add close to the same amount in sale value, we may prefer to just have that money at our disposal instead.

If it makes financial sense, my preference is for a wood-burning insert. We'd use it a lot more since it'd actually help heat the house (rather than suck the heat out!), and it'd make me feel a lot more comfortable with a little kid running around! The only hangup is that my wife really likes the "charm" of an open fire and its sounds, smell, etc...but that's my cross to bear

Man, thanks to everyone for all the information. I have to say, it's pretty awesome how friendly and helpful everyone's been! Initially, all I was hoping to learn was whether the inspector was giving me a good assessment or just trying to upsell me on a steel liner, but all of the additional feedback has been very valuable, too.

I would not be so sure that the fireplace issue wouldnt come up at sale. We do lots of inspections for buyers prior to sale for that very reason. And now that you know it is unuseable you are required to disclose that. We do lots of repairs where we are paid by the sellers to fix issues like this.

 

[SculptureOfSound]

We bought a house with the same issue but knew about it beforehand as we had the chimney inspected prior to purchase. We ended up getting a credit on the price of the house for the amount of the repair.

Some thoughts - we had it relined to use as an open fireplace, as I thought we wanted the ambiance. Big mistake. We get almost no heat from it (totally exterior chimney) and in top of that, the new liner is too small and we have smoke issues. The thing is the new liner is just a hair smaller than the original clay tiles, so i suspect it always had smoke issues but cant know for sure as we never burned it before the relining.

The smoke issues could be remedied by installing a smoke shield or "shrinking" the opening to the fireplace by adding some brick but it didn't feel worth it. The fires made the house cooler and it just didn't feel worth the work to cut split stack wood - or buy it - for an ambiance that leaves you chilly.

So Iast year I decided to start researching inserts. I've been watching Craigslist and Facebook marketplace (this seems to have many more results in my area) and finally scored the insert I wanted for a steal of a price, just $200 for a $3000 unit. This deal was better than most I've seen but you should be able to get a nice insert for $500 or less if you watch for awhile.

Anyhow now I have to reline the chimney again with a 6" liner for the insert, but my total cost for the two liners and insert will be less than it would have been for a new insert and liner.

Used is the way to go if you are worried about recouping the cost. For us we have cheap natural gas heat and a decently insulated medium size house (about 1700 sq ft). Using only $400 or so in gas a year to heat meant a new install would take 12+ years to break even, and that's if I got 100% free wood which is hard here in the city. And that's not taking into account the cost of a chainsaw, trailer, etc. I want wood heat and a real fire (not enough soul in a gas fireplace) but $5000 all in for an install was hard to justify.

 

[spudman99]

As a 36+ year real estate appraiser, I can address the value considerations of a fireplace. In my area a fireplace will normally add somewhere between $1500 to $2500 in overall property value compared to a similar unit that lacks the amenity. So no, you will not recoup money spent on a liner or an insert, either way (of course this varies and I do not know your location - just like an inground pool is valuable in Florida and worthless in Maine)

I have seen a distinct change in the composition of buyers in the last 10 years. The younger folk for the most part do not want to do hands on work. Buyers like the ease and simplicity of hitting a switch to turn on a gas fireplace rather than cut, store, haul, light, clean and deal with a wood fireplace. I venture to say I see perhaps 10% of the homes in this area have inserts (looking at 400 houses per year) and perhaps 80% have chimneys (single family homes). Buyers want the look of a fireplace, don't want/know how to use them.

I have said this to many a homeowner over the years. If you have the money and enjoy that feature, then put on the addition/renovation and don't look back. Homes are meant to be enjoyed, be relaxing and provide you comfort. If we were worried about resale value, then we would all live in square boxes that looked the same. Yes your costs are not cheap, but if it is within your budget and you will get several years of enjoyment - go for it and don't worry about the return on investment. Your time in the house with your significant others is what's important.

 

[KennyK]

As a 36+ year real estate appraiser, I can address the value considerations of a fireplace. In my area a fireplace will normally add somewhere between $1500 to $2500 in overall property value compared to a similar unit that lacks the amenity. So no, you will not recoup money spent on a liner or an insert, either way (of course this varies and I do not know your location - just like an inground pool is valuable in Florida and worthless in Maine)

I have seen a distinct change in the composition of buyers in the last 10 years. The younger folk for the most part do not want to do hands on work. Buyers like the ease and simplicity of hitting a switch to turn on a gas fireplace rather than cut, store, haul, light, clean and deal with a wood fireplace. I venture to say I see perhaps 10% of the homes in this area have inserts (looking at 400 houses per year) and perhaps 80% have chimneys (single family homes). Buyers want the look of a fireplace, don't want/know how to use them.

I have said this to many a homeowner over the years. If you have the money and enjoy that feature, then put on the addition/renovation and don't look back. Homes are meant to be enjoyed, be relaxing and provide you comfort. If we were worried about resale value, then we would all live in square boxes that looked the same. Yes your costs are not cheap, but if it is within your budget and you will get several years of enjoyment - go for it and don't worry about the return on investment. Your time in the house with your significant others is what's important.

Wise advice! I agree about focusing on what you will enjoy (within one's means of course and assuming you'll at least get a number of years enjoyment for the cost and effort). I will add that I got $5000 off the price of my home due in large part to finding out that the chimneys needed work through a chimney inspection after my initial offer. That said, that was 7 years ago and it was a complete buyers market - my neighborhood has now gone from homes selling bellow asking price to bidding wars going 60 grand over asking price!