smoke and co alarms

[razerface]

I have smoke alarms in my house that are approx 3 years old. They are interconnected. I think I need more of them, but hesitate to tear into walls for wiring.

The problem,,,, I am wanting to add a co detectors. I thought I would get a combo smoke/co and replace the existing detectors. I went to investigate models available, and discovered an argument about which smoke detector technology to buy. I also want a screen to show co levels.

I found articles that state ionization detectors are barely better then nothing,,and only to buy photoelectric types. There seems to be a combo available with both technologies, but I have not found one with all three,, photo/ion/co.

I am looking at replacing my existing ones(interconnected) and possibly adding some battery models where I can not wire them to the existing network. Mine are Firex brand ionization detectors now. Looks like Kiddie bought them out and discontinued a bunch of models.



Any firefighters with knowledge on this? According to internet info, ionization finds fast moving flames, and photoelectric finds smouldering fires.

 

[gzecc]

CO monoxide not CO2 dioxide.

 

[razerface]

thanks! I'll go edit

 

[firefighterjake]

Ohhh . . . ohhhh . . . you just hit on one of my passions . . . well, it's what I do for work as I do public education and knowing about the latest and greatest in life safety is kinda my main job . . . I get to inspect a bit on the side though.

Basically, the last line of your post pretty much sums up what you need to know . . . PE (photo electric) and ion (ionization) smoke detectors detect different types of fire (and their corresponding different types of smoke molecules) at different rates of speed. While most experts would say that eventually either type should go off, real life and testing experience has shown us that the best and earliest protection means having combination ion and PE units or having a few of both in the home . . . and that is my own recommendation . . . and in fact what I have done in my house . . . I have some combo units and I have some PEs and some ions in my own home.

There are some "experts" or sources of information that you may want to view with at least your eyes wide open. There is a professor at one of the universities in Texas that has had an issue with ion detectors for a long time. Honestly, he has some valid points. There is also a company out there that seems to keep changing its name that will tell you that most smoke detectors being sold in the department stores are junk and their own smoke detectors are much better -- these folks also tend to do most of their selling by offering free dinners and presentations and then selling stuff that is fine . . . but very, very expensive. And then you may run into the problem of professionals and politicians who have seen a problem with one type of detector (i.e. PEs having a high rate of false alarms or Ions not going off in a house full of smoke) who truly believe that going with just one type of detector and not using the other is the best idea.

One thing I will suggest is going with separate CO detectors and smoke detectors. Combo units are fine, but as you have noted there are few if any models that will do ion/PE and CO . . . more-over, most CO detectors need to be replaced every 3-7 years (depends on the manufacturer) whereas smoke detectors are good for 10 years. If you're looking for a CO detector with a digital read out Nighthawk/Kidde are considered by some folks to be among the best . . . or at least they were among the first to sell units with digital readouts to the general public. First Alert/BRK now sells some with digital read outs. Regardless of which make/model the one thing I do recommend is a unit with a battery back-up since this seems to be when most folks have issues with CO.

You mention your reluctance to rip into walls . . . you can always go with single unit battery powered smoke detectors (some use long life lithium power cells now) if this is just for home use . . . or you may look at the battery powered units that can send wireless signals to other similar units whenever an alarm is triggered . . . if one goes off, they all go off.

 

[razerface]

that's good info! I like the wireless signal to the network ability. What company makes those? I suppose I will need to stay within one manufacture once I start buying, or can I mix and match?

I read a few articles by different people,,Kevin Hunt comes to mind,, that are completely against ion detectors, but if I can have both type in 1 detector, I surely want it..

Do you know if the battery type last 1 year or so on a battery? I change my batteries every jan 2.

I am thinking I can mount battery models right next to the hard wired ones since it will take at least 2 different detectors to cover everything. Would it be better to put the smoke ion/PE on the hard wire, and mount the CO as batteries,,or the other way around?

On the wireless models,, if the smoke went off, would it send a signal and also make the CO detectors go off, using more buzzers...or would it only send the signal to other smokes.

 

[velvetfoot]

I went crazy replacing a similar system that you have now. I went with brk, aka, first alert, I beleve. Their combo detector kept falsing, and too read about how great some firemen in new england somewhere liked the photo tech. So, I extended the wiring from the existing detectors so that now I have a photo,ion,co in kitchen and second floor landing and basement, along with a photo and ion in each bedroom, also two wireless photos in garage that relay over seversl other wireless photos through the breezeway and kitchen to an interconnected interface detector at the top of the basement stairs. Also a detector on the first floor and basement connected to the monitored alarm system. Also a plugged in co detector in he main bedroom.

The smokes in the house are all electric, which I like since no batteries required. Wireless and cos require batteries.

There's a lot o stuff on the ceiling, but I, at least, don't notice it anymore.

Mine are all latching, which means the one that caused the alarm blinks even after alarm stops. I like that.

I find the photos are more susceptible to bugs, eg, spiders, as well as humidity which happened the other day when the temps went to like 60.

 

[velvetfoot]

Plus 3, soon to be 4, 10 lb fire extinguishers plus a shiney pressurized water unit-ight get another one of those too. We just replaced the 10 lbers cause they were more than6 years old.

 

[DougA]

FWIW, I think it is just a whole lot easier buying a $10. battery smoke detector for each room & hall (buy some of each type as suggested) and get them in use. In our area CO detectors are mandatory and cost about $30. Batteries are so cheap and I get at least 2 yrs on mine.
I am mystified why people want to wire everything together unless you have such a huge house that you can't hear an alarm going off in the farthest room.
Just my opinion.
I had a CO detector that had a digital readout and the alarm kept going off but the reading was zero. Bought one without the readout and it has never gone off. Sometimes too much technology is a problem.

 

[razerface]

I am mystified why people want to wire everything together unless you have such a huge house that you can't hear an alarm going off in the farthest room.

LOL,You must be young with good ears? I hooked up a buzzer from a spare smoke detector to my flue alarm the other day, which is located in the stairwell to the basement, and could not hear it in the bedroom. Now I have to add another one in a different part of the house so it can be heard anywhere.

Smoke alarms seem loud when you are right beside them,,,but from the other end of the house,,, and add in I will probly be asleep when it goes off,,,,, I for sure need a network of multiple alarms.

I agree on the battery thing and plan on using some in my house. I see they have 10 year batteries now to in some of them.

Velvet, I like that latching option too. Maybe won't go crazy figuring out location causing falsies, or be able to check specific areas for the problem when the alarm goes off.

 

[firefighterjake]

Plus 3, soon to be 4, 10 lb fire extinguishers plus a shiney pressurized water unit-ight get another one of those too. We just replaced the 10 lbers cause they were more than6 years old.

A bit curious as to why you replaced them . . . normally folks in a home setting can get 10-15 years on these before needing to replace them. For home use the two things to do are 1) check the gauge to make sure it is charged and 2) once in a while turn them upside down and let the powder loosen up (otherwise it tends to harden up much like baking soda does in a box if not used and not as much powder may be expelled when used.)

Commercial occupanices are a bit different . . . there are rules and regs to follow . . . one of which being every 5-7 years or so (depends on the type) a company needs to come in and pressure test the fire extinguishers. For home use this is not that big a deal.

That said, replacing a fire extinguisher at any time for any reason cannot really hurt things.

 

[firefighterjake]

FWIW, I think it is just a whole lot easier buying a $10. battery smoke detector for each room & hall (buy some of each type as suggested) and get them in use. In our area CO detectors are mandatory and cost about $30. Batteries are so cheap and I get at least 2 yrs on mine.
I am mystified why people want to wire everything together unless you have such a huge house that you can't hear an alarm going off in the farthest room.
Just my opinion.
I had a CO detector that had a digital readout and the alarm kept going off but the reading was zero. Bought one without the readout and it has never gone off. Sometimes too much technology is a problem.

Honestly, I have never bothered with a CO detector with digital read out . . . never really felt compelled to have the reading. Figured if the CO detector was going off I would deal with the problem right then and there by determining the cause/getting out or if there was a concern call the local FD and have them come up with their monitor to track down the potential problem.

In fact, just the other day one of my CO detectors went off . . . at first I thought it might have been a false alarm . . . until I remembered warming up the ATV to do some plowing in the attached garage. Due to the weather the exhaust lingered in the garage and I went in and out of the garage several times . . . right before the CO detector did its job. Considered this a life lesson . . . ATV will be warmed up outside in the future -- if for no other reason to avoid having the detector alarm.

 

[firefighterjake]

that's good info! I like the wireless signal to the network ability. What company makes those? There are a few companies now making them. First Alert has the One Link models . . . Kidde also sells some wireless detectors. Truthfully, these are still relatively new and I have no first hand experience with them. However, there are plenty of reviews on various makes/models at Amazon. I suppose I will need to stay within one manufacture once I start buying, or can I mix and match? I think you would find that for the battery operated wireless models you would have to stay with the one company, but single station smoke and CO detectors that are not connected can be mixed and matched.

I read a few articles by different people,,Kevin Hunt comes to mind,, that are completely against ion detectors, but if I can have both type in 1 detector, I surely want it..

Do you know if the battery type last 1 year or so on a battery? I change my batteries every jan 2. Truthfully, with today's battery technology you can go over a year in a smoke detector. That said, we recommend changing the battery at least once a year to be on the safe side . . . since it beats having to track down a dying battery in a smoke detector sounding the low battery power alarm at 2 in the morning. The standard message is to change the batteries when you change the clocks in the Fall, but if you have a specific date that works for you like a birthday, holiday or January 2nd -- stick with it. The only time you would not have to change the batteries every year is if you have long life lithium batteries as they can go years before needing to be changed out. Incidentally, folks often forget to change the batteries in their electric detectors every year.

I am thinking I can mount battery models right next to the hard wired ones since it will take at least 2 different detectors to cover everything. Would it be better to put the smoke ion/PE on the hard wire, and mount the CO as batteries,,or the other way around? Go with whatever works for you. Not sure if it matters or not, but while smoke detectors are typically mounted high on the ceiling or wall, CO detectors can be placed at any level in the home. CO when heated rises, but will quickly reach all levels in the room once it reaches room temp . . . which is why you can have a CO detector plugged into a wall outlet only a foot or so off the floor. You could not and should not do that with a smoke detector.

On the wireless models,, if the smoke went off, would it send a signal and also make the CO detectors go off, using more buzzers...or would it only send the signal to other smokes. I think you would find that it would only send a signal to the other smoke detectors . . . unless it was a combo smoke/CO unit.

 

[velvetfoot]

A bit curious as to why you replaced them . . . normally folks in a home setting can get 10-15 years on these before needing to replace them. For home use the two things to do are 1) check the gauge to make sure it is charged and 2) once in a while turn them upside down and let the powder loosen up (otherwise it tends to harden up much like baking soda does in a box if not used and not as much powder may be expelled when used.)

Commercial occupanices are a bit different . . . there are rules and regs to follow . . . one of which being every 5-7 years or so (depends on the type) a company needs to come in and pressure test the fire extinguishers. For home use this is not that big a deal.

That said, replacing a fire extinguisher at any time for any reason cannot really hurt things.

If it's good enough for commercial, why not for residential? I thought, I guess for commercial, that they had to be hydrotested and recharged every six years and that it wasn't cost effective for a homeowner to do this, although apparently mine are rechargeable. They now have the manufacture year on the bottom.

 

[velvetfoot]

You can just extend the existing wire a little and mount another detector, co or fire, as I did.

 

[firebroad]

I bought one of these two years ago. My plan is to purchase similar to replace the older ones as they become dated.
http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-KN-COSM-B-Battery-Operated-Combination-Monoxide/dp/B00004WA4C/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1389792418&sr=1-1&keywords=smoke co detector
It will even tell you when it is ready to be replaced.
When you test it, after an ear-splitting siren, a very sexy lady's voice states very calmly, "Fire. Fire. " Kinda funny.

 

[DougA]

LOL,You must be young with good ears?

Not young but my ears are still ringing this morning after the smoke detector went off at 1 am. Screaming loud could wake up the dead. Stove was back puffing and I needed to open it up a bit. Had just gotten to sleep and after I fixed the stove it was another few hours to finally saw logs.

 

[firefighterjake]

If it's good enough for commercial, why not for residential? I thought, I guess for commercial, that they had to be hydrotested and recharged every six years and that it wasn't cost effective for a homeowner to do this, although apparently mine are rechargeable. They now have the manufacture year on the bottom.

As I said . . . it can't hurt things and I suspect most home owners would not pressure test the extinguishers due to the cost.

Truthfully I don't think there are separate requirements for commercial and residential use . . . just that inspectors are in businesses and not homes as a rule and therefore the written rules are enforced . . . and to be really honest . . . I cannot recall any major issues involving any extinguishers failing or rupturing in home or commercial use . . . probably it's a CYA thing in the code.

Some extinguishers for home use can be recharged . . . and some not. Most have a manufacturing date somewhere on the extinguisher.

 

[velvetfoot]

It's just that they have to work when you want them to.

 

[firefighterjake]

Razerface . . . I looked up Kevin Hunt since I had not come across his name before . . . if he's The Courant reporter/writer who wrote the September 2013 article I should say some of the info is good and some is flawed -- some of what is stated as fact depends on the stats and supporting evidence.

I think the National Fire Protection Association's (and in fact the majority of fire safety experts in this country) stance of advocating both types of detectors -- ionization and photo-electric -- is the best method to offer the very best in early protection of all types of fires.

A very small minority of folks have said ion smoke detectors are "junk" and "killers" and advocate only using photo-electrics. I think Obi Wan said it best . . . "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." While research is always on-going and positions can change with research, I think it is wrong to say that ionization smoke detectors are no good . . . rather research (and indeed many years of stats showing a reduction in the fire fatality rate here in the U.S. tied to the number of smoke detectors -- mostly ion detectors) shows that smoke detectors of either type have helped reduce the number of fire deaths.

Again, though . . . the current opinion of the majority is that having both types provides the best protection in terms of early detection and warning.


http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/safety information/smoke alarms/nfpasmokealarmfactsheet.pdf

Oh yeah, one final thing I should have mentioned in my earlier posts . . . one of my favorite features in "new" (they've actually had this feature in smoke detectors for over 15 years now, but lots of folks aren't aware) smoke detectors is the hush or push to silence buttons. Since a significant number of fire deaths occur in homes without working smoke detectors (either they have none or they're out of service . .. often from someone yanking the battery) being able to silence a detector for the occasional false alarm is a great way to prevent folks from forgetting to put the battery back in . . . push the button, silence the detector, detector automatically resets itself five minutes later. This is a slick feature.

 

[razerface]

well, I did not believe the articles that proclaim ion is useless. When I first broke in my TL300, it set off my ion detectors the whole time from the very light smoke as it cured. I was hating them for a few hours, but was also happy to have them tested. At the present time, all my detectors are ion, installed by the contractors that built the house. They must be cheaper then the photo type.

I have decided that i will buy the "dual" detectors to replace my hardwired network, separate CO detectors that will be a combo of battery and plug-ins, per location needed. 2 of the CO's will also be the explosive gas type(propane) for my geothermal's backup furnace and the garage where a propane is hanging in the corner. Looks like a $3-400 venture

Is there any problem with the CO/propane detectors? They also come in CO/NG

 

[firefighterjake]

well, I did not believe the articles that proclaim ion is useless. When I first broke in my TL300, it set off my ion detectors the whole time from the very light smoke as it cured. I was hating them for a few hours, but was also happy to have them tested. At the present time, all my detectors are ion, installed by the contractors that built the house. They must be cheaper then the photo type. Cheaper and more common . . . while PEs have been available for a long time they were seldom seen.

I have decided that i will buy the "dual" detectors to replace my hardwired network, separate CO detectors that will be a combo of battery and plug-ins, per location needed. 2 of the CO's will also be the explosive gas type(propane) for my geothermal's backup furnace and the garage where a propane is hanging in the corner. Looks like a $3-400 venture

Is there any problem with the CO/propane detectors? They also come in CO/NG. Honestly, I have no experience -- good or bad -- with these.

 

[razerface]

Do co detectors need to be mounted high or low,, or doesn't matter?

 

[velvetfoot]

I don't think it matters, really.

 

[firefighterjake]

When warm CO rises, but when it reaches room temp it pretty much can be found in equal parts throughout the room . . . so, no . . . height does not matter as much like it would with smoke.

 

[Firewood Bandit]

Honestly, I have never bothered with a CO detector with digital read out . . . never really felt compelled to have the reading. Figured if the CO detector was going off I would deal with the problem right then and there by determining the cause/getting out or if there was a concern call the local FD and have them come up with their monitor to track down the potential problem.

In fact, just the other day one of my CO detectors went off . . . at first I thought it might have been a false alarm . . . until I remembered warming up the ATV to do some plowing in the attached garage. Due to the weather the exhaust lingered in the garage and I went in and out of the garage several times . . . right before the CO detector did its job. Considered this a life lesson . . . ATV will be warmed up outside in the future -- if for no other reason to avoid having the detector alarm.

I am surprised to see that you aren't interested in digital readouts on CO detectors. Myself I want to know if there is ANY CO present and I will investigate as to why. Here is the industry standard on how an detector will go into alarm.









After Oct. 1, 1998, UL 2034 listed CO alarms must measure and alarm when CO is:
30 PPM for 30 days
70 PPM for no more than 240 minutes before alarming (may alarm as early as 60 min.)
150 PPM for no more than 50 minutes before alarming (may alarm as early as 10 min.)
400 PPM for no more than 15 minutes before alarming (may alarm as early as 4 min.) and have a manual reset that will reenergize the alarm signal within 6 minutes if the CO concentration remains at 70 PPM or greater.


From this article.
http://home.earthlink.net/~derekgore/rvroadiervfulltimingwhatisitreallylike/id87.html