Smoke Or Condensation?

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Battenkiller

Minister of Fire
Hearth Supporter
Nov 26, 2009
3,741
Just Outside the Blue Line
There have been several posts that I've seen that ask how to tell if what they are seeing is smoke or steam... er... condensation. The other morning, we had a nice cold start to the day - about 5ºF. I got the fire going good and hot and went outside to capture the steam as it shot out of the stack and condensed a few feet above the top and turned white. If your chimney looks like this on very cold days, don't be alarmed. It's only the water vapor that the wood creates as a product of combustion.

Notice how the "smoke" doesn't materialize until a few feet from the chimney? That's because it comes out so hot that it's still in vapor form. As it gets away from the stack, it quickly chills and condenses into tiny fog-like droplets, like are found in clouds. Then, as it moves farther away, it evaporates into the dry winter air without a trace. Real smoke is brown or blue, and it lingers in the air for quite a while.

FWIW... Laboratories have burned wood in controlled situations and have determined that for every pound of dry wood burned, 0.54 pounds of water will be created in addition to the water that is already in it. The water comes from combining the hydrogen molecules in the wood with the oxygen molecules in the air. Two hydrogen atoms combine with one oxygen atom to make one molecule of H2O - water. There are an awful lot of hydrogen molecules in wood, so burning it in air makes an awful lot of water.

For example, a 10 pound split that measures 25% MC on your moisture meter has 8 pounds of wood fiber and 2 pounds of water. When you burn it to completion, that 2 pounds, plus 0.54 times 8 pounds of wood fiber (4.32 pounds) makes a grand total of 6.32 pounds of water that has to go up the chimney without condensing onto the flue walls. That's over three quarts of water produced for every 10 pounds of seasoned wood burned.

So... burn hot, my friends, and get that water up, out, and away from the chimney. ;-)


 
With a chimney cap it becomes visible condensation before it leaves the cap. Mine just boils out of the caps early in a burn as the streams hit the flat top of the caps. And often it is real hard to tell the difference between light blue/gray smoke and condensation. With no wind the smoke will tend to try to fall while the condensation pretty much rises.
 
Great video BK, clearly shows the difference between "smoke" and water condensing in the cold air. Looks like you got the old VC cranking ;-P
 
BrotherBart said:
With a chimney cap it becomes visible condensation before it leaves the cap. Mine just boils out of the caps early in a burn as the streams hit the flat top of the caps. And often it is real hard to tell the difference between light blue/gray smoke and condensation. With no wind the smoke will tend to try to fall while the condensation pretty much rises.

I see it at the cap also. I feel better reading that after hearing it should go from vapor to steam. Since I eliminated my barometric damper, I don't see it as much.
 
tfdchief said:
Looks like you got the old VC cranking ;-P

She was pushing 650º on the flue pipe just before I closed her down. Dropped to a nice, stable 425º with the bypass closed, stove top at 750º. You can't really see the heat waves in the video, but those gases were flying out of there.

As I like to say, let it rip or let it go out. ;-)
 
Like others have stated, with a cap it can be very difficult to discern between smoke and steam. Depending on weather conditions.
Sometimes only the stove can tell me what I've got up there.
 
Battenkiller said:
tfdchief said:
Looks like you got the old VC cranking ;-P

She was pushing 650º on the flue pipe just before I closed her down. Dropped to a nice, stable 425º with the bypass closed, stove top at 750º. You can't really see the heat waves in the video, but those gases were flying out of there.

As I like to say, let it rip or let it go out. ;-)

750! I was advised to shut down my stove at 600- should I be running her hotter? As you know, I am running the same Vigilant as you. Like I said, usually shutting er down at 600-650, once in a while 700- She usually settles in at 450-500 stove top at the upper right corner of the cook plate.
 
Remkel said:
750! I was advised to shut down my stove at 600- should I be running her hotter? As you know, I am running the same Vigilant as you. Like I said, usually shutting er down at 600-650, once in a while 700- She usually settles in at 450-500 stove top at the upper right corner of the cook plate.

Advised by whom? You want heat out of it, eh? A stove at 600º puts out well over twice the heat of a stove at 400º. Of course, it uses up more than twice the amount of wood doing it, there are no free rides. I have tons of wood, but only so much radiating surface area. Getting the stove temps up is the key to a happy wife, particularly with a basement install like I have.

I wouldn't run 'er at 750º 24/7 all season long, but even the VC manual says you can run in it at 750º when you need the heat. Believe me, that stove can take the temps, it's the long-term degradation of the internal parts that you have to worry about. I've had my stove top up above 850º on so many occasion I can't even remember, but it doesn't stay up there for long. I also noticed a slight glow to left door one time. Grabbed the IR gun and got 1085ºF displayed on the screen. Next day the stove was perfectly fine. Cast iron won't permanently warp at those temps, you need the insane temps found on the inside to cause that kind of damage.

Those crappy welded steel stoves OTOH... %-P
 
Battenkiller said:
Those crappy welded steel stoves OTOH... %-P

And the Lord said to Adam "Go forth and burn in a steel stove for which I have provided ample trees." And Adam replied "But what is steel? I shall burn in whatever manner of material that presents itself. Those marble looking rocks should work." And the Lord was not pleased.

After centuries of frustration watching man concoct all sorts of inferior materials for wood burning the Lord called Gabriel in for a meeting. Gabe, tell the Prophet Fisher I have a mission for him down there.
 
BrotherBart said:
Gabe, tell the Prophet Fisher I have a mission for him down there.

I always thought the first steel stoves were used oil drums, with winos feeding them a steady supply of scrap wood and newspaper. Oh, well... same thing.
 
Those crappy welded steel stoves OTOH… %-P
BK, talk about adding fuel to the fire! :lol:

In the case of my stove, you happen to be right. I've thought that I would like to have been here when the back weld popped.
Hmm, or maybe not. :ahhh:

Edit: Nice video, and explanation.
 
I'll probably end up with a steel stove someday, so I had better watch myself.


Question:

Which hurts worse...? Getting hit with 450 pounds of steel or 450 pounds of cast iron?


Answer:

Depends on how strong the guy throwing it at you is.
 
Battenkiller said:
Remkel said:
750! I was advised to shut down my stove at 600- should I be running her hotter? As you know, I am running the same Vigilant as you. Like I said, usually shutting er down at 600-650, once in a while 700- She usually settles in at 450-500 stove top at the upper right corner of the cook plate.

Advised by whom? You want heat out of it, eh? A stove at 600º puts out well over twice the heat of a stove at 400º. Of course, it uses up more than twice the amount of wood doing it, there are no free rides. I have tons of wood, but only so much radiating surface area. Getting the stove temps up is the key to a happy wife, particularly with a basement install like I have.

I wouldn't run 'er at 750º 24/7 all season long, but even the VC manual says you can run in it at 750º when you need the heat. Believe me, that stove can take the temps, it's the long-term degradation of the internal parts that you have to worry about. I've had my stove top up above 850º on so many occasion I can't even remember, but it doesn't stay up there for long. I also noticed a slight glow to left door one time. Grabbed the IR gun and got 1085ºF displayed on the screen. Next day the stove was perfectly fine. Cast iron won't permanently warp at those temps, you need the insane temps found on the inside to cause that kind of damage.

Those crappy welded steel stoves OTOH... %-P

Not saying those temps have not been seen on my stove (usually after the wife forgets to close it down). Guess I will ramp it up a bit, especially with the expected -7 to -14 temps forecasted for this weekend.

Have only seen red once, but I think I am seeing some oxidation (white shadow) on the left door where the air intake is at the front of the stove. Everything still looks fine and I am certain a coat of paint in the spring will help me to forget about it.
 
Remkel said:
... where the air intake is at the front of the stove.

I'm having a hard time finding this on my Vigilant. Oh, wait... you mean on the inside? Phew. :cheese:


That's a hot spot on mine as well. Oxidation usually is red and crumbly when it gets bad. I'll try to get a pic of my left andiron when I replace it. Looks nasty, but it may have been in there since the stove was made some 25 years ago. Not bad service for an $11 part.
 
Battenkiller - 20 January 2011 11:46 AM
Those crappy welded steel stoves OTOH…
I forgive you BK, 'cause my old Buck has so much steel in it, there is plenty to spare if I oxidize a little ;-P At the rate it is going, it will easily out live me and after that....well somebody else can junk it. (Sorry ole buck) :lol:

And BB, I really, really enjoyed the wood stove scripture :coolsmile:
 
tfdchief said:
I forgive you BK, 'cause my old Buck has so much steel in it, there is plenty to spare if I oxidize a little

Well, back in the day, when steel wasn't so dear, they actually used a lot of it. Have to give a clean pass on the old steel stoves, they were built to last.

When it comes right down to it, a stove is a stove is a stove. The all perform the same basic function. You put some wood in it, provide some spark, and it reacts by taking in lots of air and getting very hot, which makes you extremely hot. Before you know it, you're collapsed on the couch without a stitch of clothes on, falling off to sleep without a care in the world.

It's kinda like a.... uh...... never mind.


Sorry... "I See Dead BTUs" is feeding me this stuff.
 
Battenkiller said:
Remkel said:
... where the air intake is at the front of the stove.

I'm having a hard time finding this on my Vigilant. Oh, wait... you mean on the inside? Phew. :cheese:


That's a hot spot on mine as well. Oxidation usually is red and crumbly when it gets bad. I'll try to get a pic of my left andiron when I replace it. Looks nasty, but it may have been in there since the stove was made some 25 years ago. Not bad service for an $11 part.

Yeah, suppose I should have been a little more specific on the location, and I did mean on the inside.

Not seeing red and crumbly, just white discoloration. Guess a good coat of paint this summer will do it just fine for now. Going to be quite a summer with the Vigilant- complete teardown, new fireback, paint, TLC and then off to the races next year!

Now I just have to decide what I am going to do with the old parts....maybe some kind of tribute to my Pepere to place out in the new sugar shack.
 
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