Tell me how I screwed up this cut!

[Woody Stover]

This White Ash trunk was about 43'. It was leaning back diagonally from where I wanted it to go. I was worried about it breaking the hinge and going rogue, so I left a tall hinge on it. I notched it, then started the back cut, driving wedges to get the weight going toward the notch. I buried my wedges and the trunk looked like it was leaning toward where I wanted it to go, but it wouldn't fall. The trunk was also developing a barber chair-type crack above the end of the back cut. I finally had to climb a 30' ladder, tie a nylon rope (not very thick) to the trunk about 35' up, and pull it down with the quad. I was concerned that the rope might snap. The situation was freaking me out, to say the least!
So, why wouldn't this thing fall? Was my hinge too tall (4") ? How does tallness or fatness (horizontal distance between the back cut and the notch) affect how the hinge will operate?

Hard to tell, but the top of the trunk ends at the top of the pic.
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Hearth/001-8-1.jpg

Tall 4" hinge.
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Hearth/006-3.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Hearth/005-2.jpg

 

[rdust]

I'll let the experts answer the specific questions. :lol:

This is why I don't try to change the way a tree wants to fall. "IF" I try to change the way it wants to go I'll start with a rope in the tree to pull on.

 

[Woody Stover]

I'll let the experts answer the specific questions. :lol:

This is why I don't try to change the way a tree wants to fall. "IF" I try to change the way it wants to go I'll start with a rope in the tree to pull on.

In the past, and in the woods, I've usually been able to just let the tree go where it's leaning. The cuts don't demand as much precision, for sure. But this was somewhat close to the house and there were a couple of nice White Oaks, and stuff on the ground, that I didn't want to damage.
Yeah, I wish I'd got the rope up in the tree before I started cutting. I didn't like climbing that ladder leaning against the trunk with cuts already made. :gulp:
I definitely need a heftier rope, and need to read more of this "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" book that I just picked up.

 

[JustWood]

Because not only are you breaking the hinge wood , you are also splitting it . Back cuts should always be level with bottom cut of notch.

 

[Woody Stover]

Because not only are you breaking the hinge wood , you are also splitting it . Back cuts should always be level with bottom cut of notch.

That's what I thought may have gone wrong; 4" was just too much wood to split off easily.
But I thought the back cut was always supposed to come in a little above the "V" of the notch cut? Seems like I've seen pictures that show that. Not so?

 

[nrford]

Because not only are you breaking the hinge wood , you are also splitting it . Back cuts should always be level with bottom cut of notch.

That's what I thought may have gone wrong; 4" was just too much wood to split off easily.
But I thought the back cut was always supposed to come in a little above the "V" of the notch cut? Seems like I've seen pictures that show that. Not so?

not so.

 

[jebatty]

It seems to make sense to drop the tree in the direction of the lean, and for slight leans that might be OK, but it's very dangerous for a serious lean. That lean puts lots of tension on the opposite side of the trunk, and that side can split explosively when the felling the cut is made. It is far safer to drop the tree 90* from the direction of the lean.

As to screwing up this cut, it's a matter of physics. Although it might have looked like the wedges had moved the trunk far enough to the cut, it's clear that they had not moved it far enough. That's a real problem with a lean and wedges. Using a rope and winch is the way to go. And like you said, put the rope on before you start the cut. You got lucky on this one.

 

[woodsmaster]

I doubled up a couple wedges the other day when I pounded one all the way in and the tree wouldnt fall I placed another right on top of the first. worked great. Same situation you were in.

 

[shawneyboy]

Because not only are you breaking the hinge wood , you are also splitting it . Back cuts should always be level with bottom cut of notch.

That's what I thought may have gone wrong; 4" was just too much wood to split off easily.
But I thought the back cut was always supposed to come in a little above the "V" of the notch cut? Seems like I've seen pictures that show that. Not so?

It depends on the type of scarf you are using. On a true V-scarf the back cut is slightly above the scarf line. On a Humbolt scarf (angle on bottom cut of scarf) the backcut would be slightly above the top horizontal cut (actually above scarf cut). On a standard scarf (angle on top of scarf) the backcut is slightly above scarf line but within the scarf itself. At least this is the way I was taught.

The key is to leave the proper amount of hinge wood to control the fall also to ensure that the scarf cut itself is large enough to allow the tree to fall.

In your case it looks like a V-scarf. If that is the case your back cut should have been slightly above scarf line but within the scarf itself so it would seem your backcut was to high by a few inches. It is also hard to tell but the angle of the scarf cut seems a bit shallow.

See page 23 in this PDF. http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf


Shawn

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Woody, I'm glad this turned out okay but you surely broke enough rules in this that you need to count your blessings! First was the cut, which, as others have stated was much, much too high. I most of the time go just barely above and sometimes like Lee states. But the real downer was you climbing that tree after making cuts! And doing this knowing the tree was trying to barber chair on you!!

Please take note of this situation and please do not do that ever again for your own good. Also know that ash is perhaps one of the very worst trees for the barber chair act and that is because ash splits so easy. Yes, one of the advantages can also be a disadvantage. btw, the splitting is the very reason you rarely see anyone making 2 x 4's out of ash; the wood splits too easy.

 

[smokinj]

This White Ash trunk was about 43'. It was leaning back diagonally from where I wanted it to go. I was worried about it breaking the hinge and going rogue, so I left a tall hinge on it. I notched it, then started the back cut, driving wedges to get the weight going toward the notch. I buried my wedges and the trunk looked like it was leaning toward where I wanted it to go, but it wouldn't fall. The trunk was also developing a barber chair-type crack above the end of the back cut. I finally had to climb a 30' ladder, tie a nylon rope (not very thick) to the trunk about 35' up, and pull it down with the quad. I was concerned that the rope might snap. The situation was freaking me out, to say the least!
So, why wouldn't this thing fall? Was my hinge too tall (4") ? How does tallness or fatness (horizontal distance between the back cut and the notch) affect how the hinge will operate?

You missed your face cut all together. You can be a couple inch high with a bigger face. One big trees where I cant see the other side I will mark with spray paint works on small one to get a better idea of what your trying to do.

 

[JustWood]

The reason for a higher back cut is to "maybe" prevent the tree from sliding off the back of the stump IF the tree being felled comes into contact with another tree on the way down. Its a crap shoot to rely on on higher back cut because 9 times out of 10 if the tree being felled contacts another tree it more than likely will roll off the stump anyway. Always make sure your retreat is 90 degrees to the felled lay of the tree and it's not needed.
I've seen too many guys cut off their hinge by back cutting too high.
Your notch and hinge are perfect. Back cut should meet bottom notch cut.

 

[smokinj]

The reason for a higher back cut is to "maybe" prevent the tree from sliding off the back of the stump IF the tree being felled comes into contact with another tree on the way down. Its a crap shoot to rely on on higher back cut because 9 times out of 10 if the tree being felled contacts another tree it more than likely will roll off the stump anyway. Always make sure your retreat is 90 degrees to the felled lay of the tree and it's not needed.
I've seen too many guys cut off their hinge by back cutting too high.
Your notch and hinge are perfect. Back cut should meet bottom notch cut.

What face cut you talking about under over or both? I was taught to come over the bottom of the face cut about 2 inch's...Back cut leave a couple inch's of henge more when the tree is bigger. Correct me if I am wrong on this understanding? (I always use a over face cut)

 

[Woody Stover]

I doubled up a couple wedges the other day when I pounded one all the way in and the tree wouldnt fall I placed another right on top of the first.

Yeah, I had a bunch of wedges in there and the long ones were bottoming out to the hinge. When I started pulling it with the quad, I was able to get the long stackable wedges out and reload.

the angle of the scarf cut seems a bit shallow.

Thanks for the link!
Yeah, I made the face cut pretty shallow, about 1/4 of the diameter, to leave me some room for the wedges.

you need to count your blessings!...the real downer was you climbing that tree after making cuts! And doing this knowing the tree was trying to barber chair on you!!

I certainly didn't like the idea of going up that ladder! With storms coming, I didn't want to leave it standing. I tried to push the rope up as far as I could with an 18' pruner pole, but I couldn't get it far enough up the trunk. I didn't notice the barber-chair split until later, after I was already down off the ladder. That split was caused by driving the wedges in and the hinge not budging.
But I had a contingency plan when I was up on the ladder. If I had to jump clear, I was going to try to land in a pile of Red Maple that was close by, since it's known as a soft wood :cheese: .

You missed your face cut all together. You can be a couple inch high with a bigger face.

My cut was where I wanted it, I just cut it way too high. Good execution, bad planning. I was worried that since the trunk was leaning back slightly, I might risk the hinge breaking and the trunk going in the opposite direction. I clearly overcooked the hinge height! :gulp:

 

[smokinj]

This White Ash trunk was about 43'. It was leaning back diagonally from where I wanted it to go. I was worried about it breaking the hinge and going rogue, so I left a tall hinge on it. I notched it, then started the back cut, driving wedges to get the weight going toward the notch. I buried my wedges and the trunk looked like it was leaning toward where I wanted it to go, but it wouldn't fall. The trunk was also developing a barber chair-type crack above the end of the back cut. I finally had to climb a 30' ladder, tie a nylon rope (not very thick) to the trunk about 35' up, and pull it down with the quad. I was concerned that the rope might snap. The situation was freaking me out, to say the least!
So, why wouldn't this thing fall? Was my hinge too tall (4") ? How does tallness or fatness (horizontal distance between the back cut and the notch) affect how the hinge will operate?

You missed your face cut all together. You can be a couple inch high with a bigger face. One big trees where I cant see the other side I will mark with spray paint works on small one to get a better idea of what your trying to do.

That sucks when your wedges are gone......Most every tree I will set a bull line up first thing its just a nice back up plan....

 

[Woody Stover]

The reason for a higher back cut is to "maybe" prevent the tree from sliding off the back of the stump IF the tree being felled comes into contact with another tree on the way down. Its a crap shoot to rely on on higher back cut because 9 times out of 10 if the tree being felled contacts another tree it more than likely will roll off the stump anyway. Always make sure your retreat is 90 degrees to the felled lay of the tree and it's not needed.
I've seen too many guys cut off their hinge by back cutting too high.
Your notch and hinge are perfect. Back cut should meet bottom notch cut.

Gotcha, thanks!

 

[smokinj]

I doubled up a couple wedges the other day when I pounded one all the way in and the tree wouldnt fall I placed another right on top of the first.

Yeah, I had a bunch of wedges in there and the long ones were bottoming out to the hinge. When I started pulling it with the quad, I was able to get the long stackable wedges out and reload.

the angle of the scarf cut seems a bit shallow.

Thanks for the link!
Yeah, I made the face cut pretty shallow, about 1/4 of the diameter, to leave me some room for the wedges.

you need to count your blessings!...the real downer was you climbing that tree after making cuts! And doing this knowing the tree was trying to barber chair on you!!

I certainly didn't like the idea of going up that ladder! With storms coming, I didn't want to leave it standing. I tried to push the rope up as far as I could with an 18' pruner pole, but I couldn't get it far enough up the trunk. I didn't notice the barber-chair split until later, after I was already down off the ladder. That split was caused by driving the wedges in and the hinge not budging.
But I had a contingency plan when I was up on the ladder. If I had to jump clear, I was going to try to land in a pile of Red Maple that was close by, since it's known as a soft wood :cheese: .

You missed your face cut all together. You can be a couple inch high with a bigger face.

My cut was where I wanted it, I just cut it way too high. Good execution, bad planning. I was worried that since the trunk was leaning back slightly, I might risk the hinge breaking and the trunk going in the opposite direction. I clearly overcooked the hinge height! :gulp:

The more you have to justify the worse your drop was......Nothing pretty about this one, hope you have some more knowledge and take more time up front...I know I have made every mistake on this page! %-P Climbing that ladder Wow I KNOW I WOULD HAVE CRAP MY PANTS!

 

[Woody Stover]

The more you have to justify the worse your drop was......Nothing pretty about this one, hope you have some more knowledge and take more time up front...

Like Dennis said, I'm counting my blessings on this one! I'm glad to have this experience under my belt without a major mishap. I've got a couple of similar Ashes to drop on someone else's property, and I'm sure I can do better on those, armed with all the helpful advice you guys have offered. Thanks to all! Now I'm gonna go buck that sucker up.

 

[smokinj]

The more you have to justify the worse your drop was......Nothing pretty about this one, hope you have some more knowledge and take more time up front...

Like Dennis said, I'm counting my blessings on this one! I'm glad to have this experience under my belt without a major mishap. I've got a couple of similar Ashes to drop on someone else's property, and I'm sure I can do better on those, armed with all the helpful advice you guys have offered. Thanks to all!

I have had some really bad ones that took me hours to figure it out, but I will figure it out and hope I never repeat! Big heavy SIGH! Play it back in your head over and over some times you will be the only person that can figure it out. I know I am ready to retire from these big @ss yard bird! Even when everything is perfect still something comes up you have not seen before. Guess I am losing my nerve! :coolsmirk:

 

[Woody Stover]

Looks like about 1/4 cord on this 20-incher. I have to keep this one and burn it myself. It was hit by lightning as I was walking up to the house. The concussion of a lightning strike 100' away from you is incredible! I'm thinking that the lightning may have infused extra energy into the wood, possibly doubling its heat output! ;-)
Moisture ranges from 24% at the bottom to under 20% at the top. I need 15% on my meter for the wood to burn the way I want.
There are a few other dead standing Ash within about 200'. The biggest is a bit larger than this one. Hopefully at least a cord, all told.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Hearth/001.jpg

 

[smokinj]

Looks like an Awesome woods! :cheese:

 

[thewoodlands]

Looks like about 1/4 cord on this 20-incher. I have to keep this one and burn it myself. It was hit by lightning as I was walking up to the house. The concussion of a lightning strike 100' away from you is incredible! I'm thinking that the lightning may have infused extra energy into the wood, possibly doubling its heat output! ;-)
Moisture ranges from 24% at the bottom to under 20% at the top. I need 15% on my meter for the wood to burn the way I want.
There are a few other dead standing Ash within about 200'. The biggest is a bit larger than this one. Hopefully at least a cord, all told.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Hearth/001.jpg

That will make some nice firewood, attached is a link for estimating how many trees to make a cord.



http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource001044_Rep1200.pdf



Zap

 

[Cascade Failure]

I keep getting this image of Wile E. Coyote standing on top of a bent over tree as it barber chairs, flinging him through the air.

Glad it worked out for ya.

 

[Woody Stover]

Climbing that ladder Wow I KNOW I WOULD HAVE CRAP MY PANTS!

I thought I smelled something, but just figured I had stepped in some dog poo in the yard. :lol:

Looks like an Awesome woods! :cheese:

We are fortunate indeed to live in the hardwood heaven known as Indiana. :coolsmile:

That will make some nice firewood, attached is a link for estimating how many trees to make a cord.

Thanks for the link, Zap! According to that, I may have more in these Ash than I thought. :coolsmile: It's hard to believe the wood is in great shape; It had to be close to 10 years ago that the tree was hit. If the others are that solid, I'll be thrilled. The biggest one still has some smaller branches and twigs, so I'm thinking it hasn't been dead all that long.

I keep getting this image of Wile E. Coyote standing on top of a bent over tree as it barber chairs, flinging him through the air.

Glad it worked out for ya.

That Coyote jumps right back up no matter how badly he gets smashed. I know I wouldn't be as resilient, so I need to watch my step. hh:

 

[Woody Stover]

Looks like an Awesome woods! :cheese:

Here's a shot from about 25' away, down the hill with the end of the stack of Black Oak visible. The dead stander in the distance is a big Black.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Hearth/001-1.jpg