Testing the Waters before taking the plunge

[sdionnemoore]

And what a plunge this would be money-wise! I couldn't believe the prices of wood stoves when my husband and I started looking around. Well, when I started looking around. I'm the researcher-techie in the family.

What we have is a 2800 square foot, 2 yr. old, open floor plan home. The main part of the house is open, primarily because we have a handicapped daughter. We discovered quickly that she needed a home where turning radius (for her wheelchair) wasn't a problem. My DH wanted high ceilings and we got them; 10ft in bedrooms. Between 9ft (one room) to 12 ft, in main area, averaging 11 feet for most of the space. Lovely during the summer, but not so much during the winter. Our heat pump is dual-fuel and supposed to have propane backup, only we decided, too late, that the cost of propane as backup, not to mention the installation of a tank, is just not worth it, which led us to the idea of a wood stove. One of my hesitations is wind. We get terribly high winds. So much so that the heat pump thingie out back of our house got blown off its pedestal and into a brick retaining wall! I've heard that high winds can cause probs, so please let me know what to look for as far as installation of pipe. At present we are using space heaters to help with the dip in temperatures, and of course that means I am feeding the electric company. My DH and his daddy own some acreage that is heavily wooded. They are clearing to sell, which means we have a lot of free wood coming to us.

We have a "hearth" room with a working wood fireplace. Have thought about an insert, but the room is the only one sort of off-to-the-side of the rest of the open area. In addition to that fireplace we have a wall that was supposed to hold a propane fireplace and is at the heart of the open area. This is where the wood stove would sit.

My concerns regarding actual wood stoves are, of course, price. Our local dealer has a Blaze King King on clearance for $2899. I about croaked when I saw the price, but from what I've read it seems like the way to go. They also have a BK Princess for $2499. I've considered the Bennington, but not sure about convection heat. Also on my short list are Jotul, but price for that is comparative to BK, I think. My understanding is that the Jotul is a cat (or is that an optional thing?) and the BK doesn't have a cat but a thermostat (same thing?). So, for now, if someone could explain the difference between the Jotul's device to disperse heat and the BK's method, I'd appreciate it. I'm going today to look at wood stoves and get educated, but I really want to hear it explained from someone who is not trying to sell me something.

Appreciate any wisdom you can wing my way.

 

[savageactor7]

The BKK sounds like a good deal to me...probably more than you'll need. With the open floor space I'm thinking that would be more of an even heat, most folks like that.

The free wood is the kicker imo otherwise I'd advice you to consider coal.

 

[FyreBug]

Thanks for providing us with all the background info. Based on your square ft (2,800) would not a wood furnace make more sense? If you have warm air ductwork already established in your house this may be the best way to go. You can add an oil burner or an electric element in some of them if you're not home to re-stock them. Some of them are high-efficiency and EPA rated so you can get a govt rebate and a LEEDS tax credit.

Large Catalytic stove and non-cat stove can throw a lot of heat but it is radiant heat, that is they have no mechanical means of transporting the heat from one part of the house to the other. They might do well in warming up a room or a certain area of the house but if you want to warm up the whole house a wood furnace will make the most sense. Of course with the installation & cost of the unit this may be out of your budget

 

[TX-L]

My understanding is that the Jotul is a cat (or is that an optional thing?) and the BK doesn't have a cat but a thermostat (same thing?). So, for now, if someone could explain the difference between the Jotul's device to disperse heat and the BK's method, I'd appreciate it. I'm going today to look at wood stoves and get educated, but I really want to hear it explained from someone who is not trying to sell me something.

Appreciate any wisdom you can wing my way.

The Jotul models are secondary burn stoves (non-cat), the Blaze King is a catalytic stove (cat). The catalytic combustor is not an optional piece: The Jotul doesn't have one and doesn't need one due to it's combustion design to meet EPA regs, and the Blaze King must have one to operate properly. The Jotul has a manual lever operation that sets the rate of combustion air flowing into the stove; it will stay wherever you place the lever (from low to high burn setting = less to more air allowed to enter the stove). The Blaze King has a self regulating bi-metal coil thermostat device that is a function of stove operating temperature. As the stove temperature changes, the metal coil temp also changes, and will "flex" (coil tighter and uncoil when stove operating temperatures change), and this coil is attached to an inlet air damper which correspondingly modulates towards open and back towards shut dependent upon stove operating temperature, allowing the proper amount of air into the stove over the length of the fuel load burn.

Either are fine stoves, and you should do as much research as you can before you make the purchase. The BK will hold more wood and offer longer burn times; the price you indicated is a pretty good deal out here in the East of the country. I would also consider a wood furnace, as identified in a previous post. There are some companies making EPA approved wood furnaces that likely operate very well.

 

[branchburner]

The BK is a catalytic stove with a large firebox, meaning you can get longer burn times (load it less often) and a lower, more controlled heat (less likely to cook you out of the room). Good choice.

Jotul is a non-cat, also a good brand, but I'd take the BK cat. Either way, with high ceilings it is going to be hard to disperse heat to the rest of the house. The use of both ceiling fans and floor fans will help.

EDIT - remember to ask you dealer about installation; with venting, it can run $1-2k

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Welcome to the forum sdm.

I have to agree on the Blaze King for your house and don't think you would be disappointed. Also, you will be surprised at how much of that house you can heat. Moving the heat is simple by placing a small fan in a doorway or hallway and blowing cool air into the warmer stove room. Running ceiling fans blowing up also works good for circulation in that stove room.

The cost is high but what was the cost of your present furnace? Why should a wood stove cost less than an oil or gas stove? Besides, if you buy really soon, you can take a big tax credit which lowers the cost a lot!

Good luck.

 

[sdionnemoore]

Wow! I came home to so many replies. Thanks to each of you for taking the time to offer help.

The place I went had the BK, boy is it ugly *sigh* and they had the F600 Jotul ($1999 after rebate). That Jotul is a pretty wood stove. Anyhow, they are coming out Friday to give installation costs, which I dread, because I don't think it's going to be less than the hundred dollars I have budgeted.

A couple of you brought up the wood furnace option. Interesting. I never considered one. A quick check showed one at Home Depot for $1500. Then I checked on some of the brand names suggested by doing searches here and saw upwards of $4500 on price. After I regained consciousness, I decided it was time to consult the village on the issue.

So, tell me about wood furnaces. I know nothing to very little. What I do understand thus far is that I can use an add-on furnace and the blower on my already present Heap pump, but what would I be looking at cost-wise and installation-wise? What about burn times and efficiency ratings? Would these numbers be similar to stand-alone woodstoves?

 

[Fsappo]

Skip the Bennington. Even though it looks good on paper, they arent huge heaters. Ask them about the Caddy furnaces when they come out. If they are any kind of retailer they know exactly what it is.

 

[FyreBug]

So, tell me about wood furnaces. I know nothing to very little. What I do understand thus far is that I can use an add-on furnace and the blower on my already present Heap pump, but what would I be looking at cost-wise and installation-wise? What about burn times and efficiency ratings? Would these numbers be similar to stand-alone woodstoves?

If you have a good HVAC guy the sheet metal work should be minimal. The cost will be in the chimney (6" flue for the Caddy) . Depending on many variables such as ease of access, length of chimney etc... that portion alone could set you back $2,000. If you have a chimney nearby you can drop a liner in and this should reduce the cost to about $400 + labour.

You are right, an Add-on will utilize your current furnace blower. However, you need to size your furnace to your house. What is your current furnace BTU output? if it cannot keep up then we need to have a wood furnace with an "AVERAGE" BTU output surpassing it (note the large letters, wood does not burn like oil or gas - not instant & constant BTU's -) Most people like to look at the MAX Output BTU's on a wood furnace but those are only achieved during high burn. The Average BTU however is a better indication of the heat you will get over the life of the fire. Depending on the size of the furnace you need and the options you put on it an EPA Wood burning Add-on furnace will cost approx $2,800 (about 70,000 Average output BTU) up to a full blown furnace with 6 speed blower $4,000 (approx 90,000 Average output BTU). However those are retail pricing and installers usually take into consideration the entire cost of installation and discount accordingly.

As to burn time, there are members in this forum who can relate real life burn time experience. Depending on a whole lot of variables, you should be able to get 8 to 12 hours of burn time. Depending on the make some of these furnaces have an efficiency rating of 76% to 80% or more.

You have done the right thing. There is so much experience in this forums the users will help you out of any roadblock you may face. The best thing to do before plunging too deep is to ask a lot of questions and if you ever consider any appliances (stove or furnace) is ask a question regarding the particular model and also download the manual. Most MFG make their manuals available on the internet for free and you can see what restriction you may face with a particular unit.

 

[sdionnemoore]

Ack! I called DH to update him and let him know about the suggested wood furnace and he reminded me that we have TWO separate HVAC systems, each cooling half of the house (well, not right NOW. Although the air they pump out in this 14 degree weather is almost like having the AC on). I don't think buying two wood furnaces is going to be the $$ solution, though it sure sounded like a great idea. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

So two solutions are all that I can see. The first is to put a stand alone in the FR that is open to the main living section of the house. There are ceiling fans in the family room and one could be added to the breakfast area upon which the FR opens, as well as the LR. All the bedrooms also have ceiling fans. If I run these fans in reverse, and get a big enough woodstove, we might be in business. . .please say, "Yes."

Solution #2, and something I haven't brought to the table before, is the possibility of using the existing masonry fireplace in the hearth room. Even though this room is offset from the rest of the open area a bit (right next to the FR with the ceiling fan. Half walls divide this hearth room from our very open family room/kitchen/LR area) maybe it would be better to do an insert? Or am I just grasping at straw (with my cold, stiff fingers)? If this is the better of the two possibilities, am I looking at the same numbers (BTU, sq. footage, efficiency, cat/non-cat) to judge which insert is better for the area?

Who would have thought this whole problem could be so messy?

 

[jeff_t]

You may have to lower your standards as far as stove choices go. Englander's 30 NC is a pretty serious heater with a good reputation and can be found for less than $1k, though it may be a bit undersized for your house. Buck's model 91 and Country Flame's BBF are two reasonably priced, big cat stoves.

It's not a short term solution, it's a long term investment. Probably your best bet for this winter is to research and save your money, and get what you want, and think is the best choice for your home, for next winter. Get your wood supply for next winter cut and split now. If you get something installed that you're not quite sure of, and try to burn less than seasoned wood, you're in for a very frustrating winter. Modern stoves need to burn seasoned wood, and if you do much reading here you will find that less than seasoned wood is the source of most new wood burners' problems. Seasoned wood generally means split and stacked for at least a year, two years for oak.

I'm burning in an EPA 'exempt' wood furnace for now. A living room renovation is going to begin after the Christmas tree is put away that will allow for a stove upstairs again. The wood furnace does a good job for me, but I want a stove upstairs again, I think I'll burn a lot less wood, it will make things easier for my wife when I'm out of town two nights a week, and, well, I want a stove upstairs again. Anyway, I'm leaning really hard toward a big cat stove.

 

[Renovation]

For your needs I recommend the BK King. If you want high output, efficiency, even temperature, fiddle-free operation, and long burns, it is unmatched, and that price is great. Yes, it's not as sexy as some, but in this case you'll have to decide between form and function. You could pay less, but you'd never regret the money you spent on the King.

Welcome, HTH, and good luck!

 

[jotul8e2]

First, your reference to the Jotul being a cat stove and the sale price leads me to suspect it is a discontinued F600 catalytic. It was only made for a short time, and they were pretty disappointing all around. The regular F600 is a fine stove with potentially enough capacity to heat your house, depending upon your climate, insulation, and expectations. Having said all of that, there probably are better choices, some of which are mentioned above.

Second, I am on record as stating that a wood burning stove in and of itself is not the way to save money. This is an overstatement, but for a great many people in a great many situations it is quite true. You could easily spend $5,000 on a stove, pipe, and installation. This will buy a LOT of propane. I take it you have a modern high efficiency heat pump (seer 16 or better). With that and good insulation the cost of heat will be very inexpensive much of the year. The propane backup would give you heat on those days when the heat pump becomes inefficient at a cost far lower than electric resistance heat.

The first money should be spent on insulation, weatherstripping, upgraded windows and doors. This pays off year around for both heat and air conditioning. Things like insulating the water heater and hot water delivery pipes and insulating window treatments can make a dramatic difference.

Of course, that still leaves you with a heat pump for heat. While efficient, many of us do not find they provide comfortable heat. So perhaps you just want to raise your comfort? A wood stove will do this, and will lower your electric bill. But they take commitment. Cutting, splitting, stacking, planning at least a year (two is better) ahead to have adequate and dry wood, loading, dealing with ashes, etc., etc.

You do not give a location, so I can only assume you have a cold climate. If so, you will need a monster stove for that space. This is why you are getting suggestions for a wood burning furnace. An alternative might be to get a smaller stove - the Jotul Oslo, perhaps, since you seem to like that style - and use it to supplement the furnace and to create a warm space where all can gather. For a truly large capacity stove you can do a search on this site for discussions and recommendations. The Hearthstone Mansfield is one that comes to mind that many find quite attractive.

Just some things to think about.

 

[leeave96]

You may contact Englander and have a look-see at their NC-30.

Also don't forget, there is a tax credit on epa stoves through the end of 2010 so if you want to save $$$'s, now is the time.

Good luck,
Bill