Why does the US rank #10 for energy-efficient homes? This video contrasts home building standards in the US with the UK and Europe and explores current options for building to the higher ACEEE standards.
The problem with US homes
- Thread starter begreen
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
He doesn't give any indication on what his "passive" house costs on a per foot basis. Even if the video is correct and saying our expectation of housing prices in the US is absurdly low, they are still super expensive for many home buyers. What would it add to the cost to build a house like hes talking, 50,000? 100,000?
My house for example was built in 1979 with about r10 in the walls and had r30 in the attic, which I brought up to about r50. It would never make sense to stud out the walls for more insulation. Certainly not when my heating bill was about $50-60 using electric baseboards last Jan/Feb with the stove running. I expect it to be half that this year now that I have a heat pump. Even with my poor wall insulation and a few windows with failed gaskets my cooling bill was still only about $1/day on the hottest days of the year.
I have about 3500 feet including the walkout basement. My brother has 2400 feet on a slab across 2 floors with closed cell foam at a min of R21 and R50+ in the attic and his cooling costs aren't much lower than mine but his temp stability is higher in no hvac days. Ecobee (Beestat app) provides the "resist" scores to show heat gain and loss at different temps. Pretty neat to see but those get messed up with the wood stove running in the winter.
My house for example was built in 1979 with about r10 in the walls and had r30 in the attic, which I brought up to about r50. It would never make sense to stud out the walls for more insulation. Certainly not when my heating bill was about $50-60 using electric baseboards last Jan/Feb with the stove running. I expect it to be half that this year now that I have a heat pump. Even with my poor wall insulation and a few windows with failed gaskets my cooling bill was still only about $1/day on the hottest days of the year.
I have about 3500 feet including the walkout basement. My brother has 2400 feet on a slab across 2 floors with closed cell foam at a min of R21 and R50+ in the attic and his cooling costs aren't much lower than mine but his temp stability is higher in no hvac days. Ecobee (Beestat app) provides the "resist" scores to show heat gain and loss at different temps. Pretty neat to see but those get messed up with the wood stove running in the winter.
My BIL started building their house in 1981 in mid-NYS. He built it with staggered 2x4 construction to eliminate thermal bridging. It was sealed meticulously. IIRC the wall insulation spec was around R=32. The attic insulation is around R=50. He kept the glazing moderate and added an R-10 glass greenhouse to supplement. This is opened to their living room when it's sunny and closed off when not. The heating requirements for their ~2400 sq ft home are similarly low. They heat mostly with wood at about 2 cords per year or less in milder winters.
However, this was quite atypical for the times. A lot of new construction in many states, 50 yrs. later is still of a standard from the 1960s. That's the point of the video.
However, this was quite atypical for the times. A lot of new construction in many states, 50 yrs. later is still of a standard from the 1960s. That's the point of the video.
In another video he says his HVAC system cost $100k for his new house, or only $59k after rebates! Not including the solar system.
He said if he had gone for ASHP, it would've cost $39k, and cost maybe $1000 more per year to run (on grid power).
Not a great role model for affordable and sustainable home building IMO.
He said if he had gone for ASHP, it would've cost $39k, and cost maybe $1000 more per year to run (on grid power).
Not a great role model for affordable and sustainable home building IMO.
Yikes, even $39K for a good ASHP is too high unless the ducting is complicated.
That is just ridiculous and proves the point that (some) people are right not to spend the money up front. He will never make that back in his lifetime and not like the systems last forever.
You see he has all of it insulated. What is the point of it is in the conditioned envelope. Duct losses go right back into the house.
I haven't seen the video. Wondering if his system is hydronic with air handlers. That's the way my BIL's house was setup.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Construction costs have doubled in the last 10-13 years. Our insurance company used to figure replacement cost at $110 per sq ft now it’s $225. He wants a net zero house and is willing to pay for it. Remember he’s a smart YouTuber that has worked the algorithms and has a huge following. His whole house is a tax write off as it’s a part of his business. Being reasonable doesn’t get clicks and subs.
He spent $19k just on drilling holes. Now on another YouTuber’s channel HVACR Videos (he does commercial HVAC in So Cal) was swapping out his furnace for a heatpump. If he was billing out the job it would be a $50k-$60k job. I was shocked. He was not cutting corners and if he had a choice he always chose the better not cheaper option. The unit wasn’t that expensive. Just a nice Carrier 2.5 ton infinity. My point is labor has gone way up. Good labor is hard to find and you will pay a premium for.
There are better models out there to follow. Im sick of of this trend that shows “real” people building on unrealistic budgets ( Matt Risinger’s real remodel on a 100k budget just turned in to a giant product placement sponsorship and he never said how much it would have cost) .
If you Want a much better house build to watch where they don’t blow 100k on hvac.
Watch this….. it’s much more real. Thought full and he actual does most of the work himself (with his wife and parents)
He spent $19k just on drilling holes. Now on another YouTuber’s channel HVACR Videos (he does commercial HVAC in So Cal) was swapping out his furnace for a heatpump. If he was billing out the job it would be a $50k-$60k job. I was shocked. He was not cutting corners and if he had a choice he always chose the better not cheaper option. The unit wasn’t that expensive. Just a nice Carrier 2.5 ton infinity. My point is labor has gone way up. Good labor is hard to find and you will pay a premium for.
There are better models out there to follow. Im sick of of this trend that shows “real” people building on unrealistic budgets ( Matt Risinger’s real remodel on a 100k budget just turned in to a giant product placement sponsorship and he never said how much it would have cost) .
If you Want a much better house build to watch where they don’t blow 100k on hvac.
Watch this….. it’s much more real. Thought full and he actual does most of the work himself (with his wife and parents)
I guess I would answer this question with the fact that the US was the Saudi Arabia of its time, totally energy dominant in oil, supplying all of our needs and those of our allies, until the 1960s. So all of our choices in building and infrastructure and automobile design and jet aircraft were the product of that energy plenty, more consumption model.
And a LOT of our homes were built (including mine) during that epoch. Two oil shocks (in 1978 and 2005) came and went, and we didn't completely retrofit the built environment. The fact that more than 50% of homes in New England STILL heat with oil shows how 'sticky' those heating and design choices can be!
That period of energy plenty is still remembered (including by people not then alive) as a golden age, and its loss is thought the end of all that was good. The political finger pointing started with Carter and Reagan, and is not over yet. Fingers got pointed at the environmentalists, who took on the 'de-growth' mindset. The frackers nowadays are seen as saviors, who might lead us back to the promised land
Only now, more than 50 years later, is a new age of cheap and abundant (cough, renewable, cough) energy upon us. I think Passive houses will be white elephants in 20 years, overpriced curiosities like Earthships and Trombe walls.
It doesn't get into the details of distribution and plumbing. He says it cost $78K, which dropped to $54.6K with the tax credit. What is missing from the ROI is the cost of maintaining these complex systems. The only cost for our central heat pump has been replacement filters over 17yrs so far. Not sure he is going to see that kind of service. There are a lot more moving parts in his system.
Last edited:
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Who writes or just as important vetos building code? To me this is a code issue. Government can give tax credits for retrofits b
Attics down here now have to be r38 and my contractors were squawking. Same with the new souther SEER2 requirements.
American like big homes. Big builders can do them cheaper for the developers, sub contract it all out to the lowest bid. Chatted with a guy who was building a new home not on the beach/barrier island but pretty close to the ocean (less than1.5 miles) He found a whole wall that the sill plate anchors were non functional. Of course it had already passed inspection.
Attics down here now have to be r38 and my contractors were squawking. Same with the new souther SEER2 requirements.
American like big homes. Big builders can do them cheaper for the developers, sub contract it all out to the lowest bid. Chatted with a guy who was building a new home not on the beach/barrier island but pretty close to the ocean (less than1.5 miles) He found a whole wall that the sill plate anchors were non functional. Of course it had already passed inspection.
I only see it worth it in cold climates with high electric cost.
And you have to have a company that will even service that unit. He says the unit can last 25 years but it seems all the new stuff with all the electronics, ECM motors, capacitors or inverter tech don't last.
That doesn't always hold true. Our heat pump system has a fair amount of electronics including an air handler with ECM motor. It's been trouble-free. I haven't heard of a lot of issues with the mini-splits that have been in for over a decade now, except for one case of a Fujitsu that had its motherboard blown out due to a power surge. That was replaced under warranty.
That said, the house in the video has a lot more equipment with the potential for service needs.
That said, the house in the video has a lot more equipment with the potential for service needs.
Right but he is saying 20-25 years. That is a long time to expect electronics to work on a much more complex system. The parts will be expensive in 10 years which I'd assume is out of warranty by that point.
Lot of ASHP have 5-10 year warranty but that is only parts, no labor and no refrigerant. Thats why I have 25# of R410a which if I ever need I'll have and if not sell it off in 10 years for triple what I paid.
That sounds like negative fun. webfish has a Wirsbo system that I think is geothermal for another data point.
I know that when I looked at geothermal back in 2006, it didn't pencil out. As much as I like the concept, it was very expensive and there were not many service people around.
So based on some assumptions and his after-tax costs it would take about 15+ years to break even over ASHP but I don't think he mentioned that ASHP also gets a federal tax credit of 30% up to $2,000, and even more at the state level for many. So it would take just under two decades to start seeing savings. Thats based on a entry-mid level 16 SEER ASHP too. Factor in tonnage and electric rates this could go either direction quite a bit.
His ASHP quote of $39k is double what it was to install ducting, 3T heat pump (2400 sq ft), propane furnace and wiring in 2021 for a family member of mine.
I paid $11,500 for a 4T complete system and moved where the air handler was so I had a fair amount of duct work to be done.
I've heard from a builder that Amish labor rates went frorm 20-25/hr to 38/hr (pre covid/this summer). Just price out a replacement roof...i was going to have one put on this summer, now i'm thinking about doing it myself.
I had the Amish do 4000 sq ft this spring. $3/sq foot including tear off of 2400 ft of aluminum panels, wood replacement where needed (I provided wood/screws for this). No idea what their hourly rate would have been. Certainly wouldn't have been worth my time, even if I had the time to do it. This was for exposed fasteners pole barn type panels.
I might be doing two oil furnace replacements for ASHP in one of my houses due to labor costs.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
A complicating factor in all of this is that, anytime you're talking more than a year or three, inflation becomes a dominant force in ROI. If you spend a additional $40k on a system to save $2k per year over the alternative, your ROI is not 20 years at 3% - 6% inflation.
If electrical utility pricing scaled with inflation, it might almost cancel out, but we know it doesn't.
My brother had them build a large pole building pre covid and that thing would cost 2x or more now. They do it all//framing, metal work, etc.
I've done 4 minisplit installs myself. Not difficult at all--just need to invest a few hundred in tools (pump, digital vacuum gauge, flaring tool, etc). I'll be interested how they perform this winter (the ones i have work down to -13F). I also have wood heat and a pellet stove.
There may be multiple air handlers in the system that hot or chilled water run through to condition the room air.
Similar threads
