Thinking about ripping out the old Zero-Clearance Fireplace...

[CJRages]

Considering tearing it out and replacing with Class A pipe to a freestanding stove before winter 2010-2011. The fireplace vents to an exterior wall chase.

I would rather not destroy the brick surround, but it may be impossible to save. The fireplace is located in the basement of a split level home and is actually located under ground level. So there probably is no way to pull the zero clearance fireplace out the back. Is there any way I could break it/cut it up in pieces and pull it out one piece at a time?

The rebuild could be fairly simple? I have seen a couple threads here of folks doing a ZC replacement above grade and had to deal with combustibles in the chase behind the old ZC fireplace. My situation is different. As best I can tell, the foundation of the home was poured in kind of a box shape on that side of the house and the ZC firebox was placed in the concrete "cove" and it is only near combustible materials that are above the firebox. It does seem odd to me that a zero-clearance fireplace would be utilized in this setup.

(please ignore the old stove in pic 1 - it was here when we bought the house, and in a prior life caused damage to the ZC firebox as seen in other pics)

 

[Dakotas Dad]

Yeah, my guess is you *could* cut it apart and get it out... but I bet it would be a lot of work. It may be just sort of sitting there..? After looking at the one we pulled out, it could be that just sawzalling the perimiter would allow it to come out, then just cut that ring into pieces and pull it out? I can tell you that if you are careful, the bricks around the opening can be removed and replaced and no one the wiser.

 

[CJRages]

Dakotas Dad,

I really like your pictures showing the complete transformation from the old pre-fab to efficient heat! It is very inspirational and motivating. That tile work looks great!

Was that some type of special insulation around your metal framing? Are you pleased with how the project turned out?

 

[Dakotas Dad]

The insulation under the hearth is sort of special.. lol, it's rockwool, which is not easy to find around here, near as we could find we bought the one, (1), bale available for about 3 counties in any direction, and had to go two counties over to get it.. More than 1 person has pointed out it looks like the foam stuff or something, but it's not.

The rest of the insulation you see is just plain old r-13 fiberglass with the paper removed. You can not (at least around here) get un-faced r-13. But just peeling off the facing was fine by the local inspector.

Yes we are happy. It is turning out just how we wanted. We did some stuff to our install that was particular to our home. We could have made the raised part of the hearth shorter front to back, and just put ember protection out in front, but part of the reason to extend it the way we did, and give up some floor space, was our dogs. We have 2 large ones, will probably not have any smaller in the future, so wanted to create a buffer around the stove. They used to lay right up against the fireplace, and we didn't want that with the stove.. We still use a screen also. As soon as we get past "her" heating season, we will paint/install mantel/finish grouting.

 

[southbalto]

You should be able to drop the existing flue and take it apart piece by piece.

Here is a link my ZCFP tearout: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50028/

 

[CJRages]

Hey southbalto,

How much of your house are you heating with the Castine? That install looks great by the way. You had a few more obstacles to overcome with that installation - pipe offsets and combustibles behind your stove. I would like to do what you have done but (unlike your set-up) there is no way for me to get to the thimble to clean out the chimney if I close up the front of the old firebox area.

 

[southbalto]

Hey southbalto,

How much of your house are you heating with the Castine? That install looks great by the way. You had a few more obstacles to overcome with that installation - pipe offsets and combustibles behind your stove. I would like to do what you have done but (unlike your set-up) there is no way for me to get to the thimble to clean out the chimney if I close up the front of the old firebox area.

Well, I can get the stove room, which is pretty large, up to the mid-upper 70s no problem. As for the rest of the house, with it running 300-600 on top, it stays above 65.

It's a small firebox so I can usually get only a few hours of serious heat per load. If I cram it tight around 11pm I'll have enough coals left over to get it going again until around 6 or so.

Good luck with the install!

 

[CJRages]

Very nice... Thank you.

I am considering either the Castine or Oslo for our house... I have wondered if the Oslo would be too large or unnecessary for our setup? Especially since winters are not as cold in MO as it is in the upper to mid Atlantic region.

 

[southbalto]

The upper rooms should get some good heat with the split entry design. I think the castine or oslo would both do a fine job keeping the house warm.

If clearances are not an issue I'd lean towards to oslo to get the longer burn time. You can always burn smaller fires so you don't get blown out of the living room.

 

[polaris]

All Jotul (as well as several other brands) stoves are rated to run through a zc fireplace without the need to tear anything out. You just insert an insulated liner through your existing air cooled chimney.
Just a thought.
Joe

 

[southbalto]

All Jotul (as well as several other brands) stoves are rated to run through a zc fireplace without the need to tear anything out. You just insert an insulated liner through your existing air cooled chimney.
Just a thought.
Joe

There are two types of chimneys suitable for the Jøtul F 400 :
1. A code-approved masonry chimney with a ceramic tile or
listed steel flue liner.
2. A prefabricated chimney complying with the requirements
for Type HT (2100°F) chimneys per UL 103 or ULC S629.

Pulled from the F400 manual. Can you link me to a insulated liner that meets the UL 103 standard? 2100 HT?

 

[Dakotas Dad]

All Jotul (as well as several other brands) stoves are rated to run through a zc fireplace without the need to tear anything out. You just insert an insulated liner through your existing air cooled chimney.
Just a thought.
Joe

There are two types of chimneys suitable for the Jøtul F 400 :
1. A code-approved masonry chimney with a ceramic tile or
listed steel flue liner.
2. A prefabricated chimney complying with the requirements
for Type HT (2100°F) chimneys per UL 103 or ULC S629.

Pulled from the F400 manual. Can you link me to a insulated liner that meets the UL 103 standard? 2100 HT?

Changed my mind...

My dealer told me I could use a insulated flue liner inside my old chimney.. I didn't like the idea, and so, did it the hard way.

 

[southbalto]

All Jotul (as well as several other brands) stoves are rated to run through a zc fireplace without the need to tear anything out. You just insert an insulated liner through your existing air cooled chimney.
Just a thought.
Joe

There are two types of chimneys suitable for the Jøtul F 400 :
1. A code-approved masonry chimney with a ceramic tile or
listed steel flue liner.
2. A prefabricated chimney complying with the requirements
for Type HT (2100°F) chimneys per UL 103 or ULC S629.

Pulled from the F400 manual. Can you link me to a insulated liner that meets the UL 103 standard? 2100 HT?

http://www.fireplace-chimneystore.com/page/page/1580350.htm scroll down all ul listed. THIS IS NO RECCOMENDATION of this seller website, just the very 1st hit when I googled "flexible flue liner"

You're right that they are UL listed. That doesen't mean they meet the UL 103 standard.

Those liners are designed to be installed insided a masonry flue.

 

[polaris]

All Jo (as well as several other brands) stoves are rated to run through a zc fireplace without the need to tear anything out. You just insert an insulated liner through your existing air cooled chimney.
Just a thought.
Joe

There are two types of chimneys suitable for the Jøt F 400 :
1. A code-approved masonry chimney with a ceramic tile or
listed steel flue liner.
2. A prefabricated chimney complying with the requirements
for Type HT (2100°F) chimneys per UL 103 or ULC S629.

Pulled from the F400 manual. Can you link me to a insulated liner that meets the UL 103 standard? 2100 HT?

http://www.fireplace-chimneystore.com/page/page/1580350.htm scroll down all ul listed. THIS IS NO RECCOMENDATION of this seller website, just the very 1st hit when I googled "flexible flue liner"

Yes I can but I'm at work right now. If you do a search on here you can find it. A couple of others folks who have done the Jo approved install and have posted it. It is also listed in the Jotul installers manual.Not the one you get with the stove, a separate one called, I think the pre planning guide. If you or anybody else is in a big hurry for the information you can call Jotul corporate and they can explain it. I did. What you end up with is an insulated 2100 degree ss liner encased in an 8" ss pipe ,surrounded by either rock wool insulation or cooling air all encased by a third galvanized pipe. Not much is getting through all that. In fact I would think this would be one of the safest installs out there. If it was not safe Neither Jotul nor most all of the other higher end manufacturers would endorse this install. The lawyers for a company with billions in assets would never allow them to openly ehdorse an unsafe install the liability would simply be too great.
Joe

 

[Dakotas Dad]

Forgot you were working with a pre fab chimney..

But as far as your cleanout question earlier.. You will go out the back of the stove to a "T" and then up the chimney. In front of the old fireplace opening will be a "surround" closing off the hole. To clean, you will just disconnect the stove, pull it forward, remove surround. walla! there is your "T". This is how my neighbors is set up.

 

[CJRages]

There are a few reasons why I feel the flex liner is a bad idea for my situation.

First, the existing fireplace has been modified from its original condition - I began to disassemble a few parts last night and noticed some more things... The previous owners removed parts from the FP and modified the setup so they could jam an oversize wood burning insert in there. The insert was directly venting into the "air cooled" chimney (!). Yikes! The previous owner also plugged an air vent with insulation near the base of the fireplace behind one of the side heat shields - not sure why. The large firebricks are toast and Majestic doesn't sell replacements. Also the firebox is no longer sealed properly - the sheet metal is warped in places and there are gaps around the edges. So I'm not sure I can put any trust in the current fireplace components to be safe.

Second, a free-standing Jotul connected to a liner in a prefab chimney is questionable due to the quote from the Jotul manual as southbalto has pointed out. I can guarantee you my current prefabricated chimney does not meet those standards. The manual isn't clear if a ss liner meeting 2100*F code requirements would be sufficient? If someone can prove me wrong, please do.

Also, a class A pipe would give peace of mind that the install is up to national code (more importantly - safe to my family) in case there was an insurance issue.

 

[CJRages]

Yes I can but I'm at work right now. If you do a search on here you can find it. A couple of others folks who have done the Jo approved install and have posted it. It is also listed in the Jotul installers manual.Not the one you get with the stove, a separate one called, I think the pre planning guide. If you or anybody else is in a big hurry for the information you can call Jotul corporate and they can explain it. I did. What you end up with is an insulated 2100 degree ss liner encased in an 8" ss pipe ,surrounded by either rock wool insulation or cooling air all encased by a third galvanized pipe. Not much is getting through all that. In fact I would think this would be one of the safest installs out there. If it was not safe Neither Jotul nor most all of the other higher end manufacturers would endorse this install. The lawyers for a company with billions in assets would never allow them to openly ehdorse an unsafe install the liability would simply be too great.
Joe

I appreciate the alternative Joe. What is the best way for me to contact Jotul? I've tried finding a number on their website, but couldn't. Anyone have any ideas? I'd like to find out what they would recommend in general and in my situation.

 

[begreen]

Rip it out, do it right. You'll have peace of mind and a totally better look as a result. A freestanding Jotul will heat better and will look great there.

--> The liner inside of the air cooled pipe got discussed here:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/45008/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14704/

 

[CJRages]

Rip it out, do it right. You'll have peace of mind and a totally better look as a result. A freestanding Jotul will heat better and will look great there.

--> The liner inside of the air cooled pipe got discussed here:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/45008/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14704/

Lol...

Well after reading all that, I'm more completely confused than ever. :D

I still hold firm that the peace of mind is worth the extra $ of a class A install. Safety may be equal between the two options or it may not. I would rather be safe and know for sure, 100%, without any doubt, never anxious about "what if", that the install is correct. Holding an extra $1,000 isn't enough sway.

 

[begreen]

Agreed.

Design the new hearth for top exit off the stove. If the concern is overheating, a more convective stove like a Fireview (cat) or PE Alderlea will soften the heat output and will work over a wide range of heat demand. But I could definitely see an Oslo in there too. For heat distribution, it might help to have a cold air return from the bedroom hallway.

 

[CJRages]

Design the new hearth for top exit off the stove.

Are you referring to an "alcove" style? If I use the existing chase for a class A chimney, then I will probably rear vent to a T and then up. The chase is about 22' tall from where the T would be located.

Do you have a picture of what your talking about?