This is my first post and it will surely display my ignorance of catalytic stoves

[Ashful]

He's at 29' of pipe now. How much difference do you expect with a few more sections? Might be time to check for obstructions.

 

[Smoke Signals]

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought he had underestimated the height of the stack.

 

[LE615]

Hi LE615,

You are correct... the smoke out the door with bypass open is unrelated to operation of the stove / catalyst, etc. As I'm sure you already saw, opening the bypass door gives you a straight shot from firebox up thru chimney. In fact, I can NOT burn my stoves with the bypass open, as the straight path provides draft too strong to control the fire. You definitely have a draft issue, so it's worth exploring this, before we get into the finer points of catalytic stove operation.

I'll check your pic's when I get home. They're not loading on my mobile device.

@jeff_t, nope! The series ends at Washington's first battle with Gage. My grandmother's and uncle's houses became temporary headquarters for Washington the following year, but my current house played no role, of which I know.

I'm going to go by and pick up a couple 45's as soon as I get the chance in the next day or two. Hopefully that will be enough difference in draw to help keep the smoke headed the right direction.

 

[LE615]

LE615, Could you pre-assemble a few sections of pipe and then place them on top of the chimney as high up as you can reach?

It was a little hairy getting that last section up there as it is so I'd have to come up with something different to be able to do it. Honestly though, the height is already kind of at the maximum I feel comfortable with due to the high winds they have on top of that hill. I had to add extra bracing in order to stabilize the last couple sections of pipe and it's starting to look as though they are trying to run shortwave radio though it. If I cant make it work without adding more sections of pipe then most likely I'll just disassemble all the pipe, replace the sheetmetal I ran the pipe through and run it straight through the roof so that it has no turns in it.

 

[begreen]

He's at 29' of pipe now. How much difference do you expect with a few more sections? Might be time to check for obstructions.

Look at the picture. That is definitely not 29' of chimney. This is a single story install. Softening the inside 90 turn is the next thing to try.

 

[bobdog2o02]

I see a ladder that looks like a 6 footer against the building. Lots of a sections of pipe too. I see 12'class a and then another 8-9 down to stove height. With the 90 in the middle of your run I'd replace it with 45's asap. Also. Don't run it all the time with the bypass open, I'm not sure about this stov but others are not designed for the constant high heat going through the bypass.

 

[LE615]

He's at 29' of pipe now. How much difference do you expect with a few more sections? Might be time to check for obstructions.

Today, while I had the stove cooled, I checked to make sure there wasn't anything between the bypass door and the pipe and that was clear. I checked all the triple wall pipe as I pulled it from the boxes and stacked it. There wasn't any obstruction at that point. I'm thinking that there is going to be nothing obstructing airflow but I have to swing by there again tomorrow so I'll double check that there isn't anything in there.

 

[LE615]

Look at the picture. That is definitely not 29' of chimney. This is a single story install. Softening the inside 90 turn is the next thing to try.

I see a ladder that looks like a 6 footer against the building. Lots of a sections of pipe too. I see 12'class a and then another 8-9 down to stove height. With the 90 in the middle of your run I'd replace it with 45's asap. Also. Don't run it all the time with the bypass open, I'm not sure about this stov but others are not designed for the constant high heat going through the bypass.

Begreen, you're right, it's definitely not 29' of pipe. While it is a single story house it's not because the house isn't as tall as any other 2 story. At the peak the house is, I believe, 25' tall and 18' at the eaves.

Bobdog, there is actually an extra joint of pipe (a shorter 24" piece) outside plus the height of the exit side of the 90 and the height it gains from its diameter which put it at about 15' outside. There is only about 7' of pipe inside so it comes up to right around 22' total rise. The 45's will be the next thing I try.

 

[Ashful]

Look at the picture. That is definitely not 29' of chimney. This is a single story install. Softening the inside 90 turn is the next thing to try.

Pic's won't load for me on this thread, for some reason. You are correct though, he listed the total chimney at "25 to 26 feet". Same comment holds, though... that should be more than enough pipe to make that stove draw.

Replacing 90's with 45's will help, but I still feel there's something else at play, here. Could very high MC% wood keep the chimney cool enough as to kill draft? Is the elevation entirely to blame? I know my 25 foot chimney sucks like... well, you know.

edit: Just checked on a PC with a wired connection, and now I see the pic's. Yep, probably only 20 feet from top of stove, but that should still be plenty, under normal conditions. I'm assuming you know which way to turn that pipe damper, and don't have it shut tight when you think it's wide open. Do you have the same experience with dry pallet wood or framing lumber (small quantity only, for safety), as with your wet cord wood? Is it only when you're starting from a cold stove, or does it also spill smoke on warm reloads? Draft reversal on a cold chimney is not uncommon, but it's a serious CO safety issue if it's happening on a warm chimney.

 

[LE615]

Pic's won't load for me on this thread, for some reason. You are correct though, he listed the total chimney at "25 to 26 feet". Same comment holds, though... that should be more than enough pipe to make that stove draw.

Replacing 90's with 45's will help, but I still feel there's something else at play, here. Could very high MC% wood keep the chimney cool enough as to kill draft? Is the elevation entirely to blame? I know my 25 foot chimney sucks like... well, you know.

edit: Just checked on a PC with a wired connection, and now I see the pic's. Yep, probably only 20 feet from top of stove, but that should still be plenty, under normal conditions. I'm assuming you know which way to turn that pipe damper, and don't have it shut tight when you think it's wide open. Do you have the same experience with dry pallet wood or framing lumber (small quantity only, for safety), as with your wet cord wood? Is it only when you're starting from a cold stove, or does it also spill smoke on warm reloads? Draft reversal on a cold chimney is not uncommon, but it's a serious CO safety issue if it's happening on a warm chimney.

It is 21' 8" above stovetop not including the cap up top.

Haha yes, I'm well aware of which way is open vs. closed on the damper.

I. Haven't tried and dry lumber but I do have some untreated 2x4's left over from hunting blind construction that I could try out.

It spills smoke under any condition, even if there is an extremely hot fire burning and I just open the door without adding anything. Standing outside watching the chimney the smoke appears to be coming out like it should and the only time you can even smell smoke in the house is when you open the door for more than about 3sec. I had my mother open the stove doors while I went outside to monitor the smoke from the chimney. The smoke coming from the chimney didn't seem to change when she opened the stove door and if anything it seemed to star moving a bit faster.

 

[begreen]

Have you tried first opening a nearby window or door a inch before opening the stove lid?

 

[LE615]

Have you tried first opening a nearby window or door a inch before opening the stove lid?

I tried that first thing because I figured that if that cured the problem then I probably just needed to add more pipe but it made no noticeable difference. As a matter of fact we even tried opening multiple doors with no change. The wind is blowing pretty hard today and the smoke is really flying out of the chimney. There is an extremely hot fire in the stove now so there not lots of smoke coming out up there but what is coming out is really moving. But... Even with that, as soon I open the door up it starts letting smoke in.

My vent is open all the way and I just opened the damper and it flared the fire up instantly just like mine at home does. Pretty much everything runs just as mine at home does with the exception of the smoke coming in.

 

[LE615]

For anyone familiar with this particular stove, is there anyway that something inside the stove could cause this? Such as something being stopped up between the outer shell and the inner "wall" plates? It seems as though air is supposed to move around behind them so thought I'd ask.

 

[Ashful]

That stove has a double bottom plate, which is the primary air plenum. If you look under the stove, you'll find the two air inlets, 1" diameter holes just forward of the rear legs. The air drawn in thru these two holes flows between the two bottom plates, and then to three holes in that upper plate. The first two are into the catalytic combuster chamber, and there is no damper / control on these. The third hole is into the plenum below your front doors, and your primary air lever works a small sliding aperture, which controls how much of this air is allowed to flow into this plenum. Either end of that plenum is connected into the door jamb stand pipes, which allow air into another plenum over your front doors, where it enters the firebox.

Yes, it is possible some mouse or rodent at some point crawled into one of these air inlets and died, but I think that would cause symptoms the opposite of what you're seeing. Namely, it would cause a lack of air flow when the doors are closed (thus killing your fire when you close the doors), not smoke spillage when you open the doors.

I can open my front doors without a single whisp of smoke escaping, at any time. I can even open my top door, and unless the chimney is cold and not drawing, I don't get any smoke out the top door, either. The only time I get smoke in the house is if I try to open the front and top door at the same time, since a 6" chimney is just not sufficient for that sort of open cross-section.

I'm really stumped on this one. I know the Firelight 12 probably better than most here, but I think this is not a Firelight 12 issue, it's a chimney draft issue. I'd probably be looking at barometric testers that oil burner guys use, and some benchmark or baseline of what a typical wood stove install might require.

 

[jeff_t]

I'd probably be looking at barometric testers that oil burner guys use, and some benchmark or baseline of what a typical wood stove install might require.

Manometer.....

Does Jotul have a spec? Blaze King says .05" w.c. on high, anything over .06" is too much. I've seen somewhere between .04-.06" as acceptable on other appliances.

 

[begreen]

I recently saw a spec calling for up to .1, but can't recall which stove now.

 

[LE615]

That stove has a double bottom plate, which is the primary air plenum. If you look under the stove, you'll find the two air inlets, 1" diameter holes just forward of the rear legs. The air drawn in thru these two holes flows between the two bottom plates, and then to three holes in that upper plate. The first two are into the catalytic combuster chamber, and there is no damper / control on these. The third hole is into the plenum below your front doors, and your primary air lever works a small sliding aperture, which controls how much of this air is allowed to flow into this plenum. Either end of that plenum is connected into the door jamb stand pipes, which allow air into another plenum over your front doors, where it enters the firebox.

Yes, it is possible some mouse or rodent at some point crawled into one of these air inlets and died, but I think that would cause symptoms the opposite of what you're seeing. Namely, it would cause a lack of air flow when the doors are closed (thus killing your fire when you close the doors), not smoke spillage when you open the doors.

I can open my front doors without a single whisp of smoke escaping, at any time. I can even open my top door, and unless the chimney is cold and not drawing, I don't get any smoke out the top door, either. The only time I get smoke in the house is if I try to open the front and top door at the same time, since a 6" chimney is just not sufficient for that sort of open cross-section.

I'm really stumped on this one. I know the Firelight 12 probably better than most here, but I think this is not a Firelight 12 issue, it's a chimney draft issue. I'd probably be looking at barometric testers that oil burner guys use, and some benchmark or baseline of what a typical wood stove install might require.

So the primary air actually enters the interior of the stove through the plenum above the door? The reason I'm asking about this is because right where the outlet is above the door seems to be where the disruption is. The smoke will stay in the stove for the first few seconds but you can see it start swirling right there and build up until it starts rolling out. I tend to agree with you though, it sure seems to be a draft issue but there are just enough things pointing the other way that it keeps me baffled. I do have a small front loading shop stove from TSC that uses a 6" pipe that I thought about hooking up to see if it would work but I'm not sure if it requires a differ amount of draft in order to function or not. Plus it would be a pain to do. The stove in my house and the one before that both have 8" pipe and they have both drawn on the strong side. When I was remodeling my house I removed the stove and actually had to make a plug to block the pipe because it was sucking all the air conditioning right out the roof. It would even suck papers off the coffee table across the room. Anyways, I think the next step is as you and others have suggested, is to replace the 90 with two 45's. I'm not a big fan of through the wall installations anyways and only did so t his time because my father hated the idea of purposely putting a hole in t he roof. I'm almost of the mind to take it through the roof before next winter even if the 2 45's help the situation. It would cpipost me a couple hundred bucks to buy the "through the roof" kit and then I wouldn't have to worry about any of the foolishness. My father is almost to the point of selling this Jotul and replaces it with a non cat model because of the low MC requirements. He just doesn't see him or I having the time to ever get ahead 2-3 years with the wood cutting. I'd like to give it a shot because of the long burn times this stove is capable of and then there would be no worrybs about mom having to tend to the fire constantly.

 

[LE615]

Manometer.....

Does Jotul have a spec? Blaze King says .05" w.c. on high, anything over .06" is too much. I've seen somewhere between .04-.06" as acceptable on other appliances.

How does this effect wood stoves and/or their draw? I'm sure I'm displaying my ignorance again.

 

[Ashful]

So the primary air actually enters the interior of the stove through the plenum above the door? The reason I'm asking about this is because right where the outlet is above the door seems to be where the disruption is. The smoke will stay in the stove for the first few seconds but you can see it start swirling right there and build up until it starts rolling out.

Yes... all firebox air enters above the front doors, in an effort to keep the stove glass clean (standard "air wash" concept).

There is an adjustable plate above the door. If you open the doors, bend down, and look up you'll see it's held in by two small (M5?) cap screws in slots, such that it is adjustable. I've tried many times to ask dealers and Jotul support, why this is adjustable, and what is the procedure for adjusting it, but have never received anything but a blank stare. I am sure they have to do with controlling that door air wash directivity or flow, but don't know why you'd want to move it one way, versus the other. So, on both of my stoves, I just set them to the middle of the adjustment range.

It might be worth adjusting that plate one way, and then the other, to see if it has an effect. I'd be interested if it did, since you seem to think that might be near the source of trouble.

Replacing this stove with a non-cat would be a shame. First, I think you will have trouble getting a non-cat going as easily as the catalytic, if you do have a draft problem, since they have no bypass damper to open. Second, they also require dry wood, so you're not solving any problem, there. Only difference is that they will still run with wet wood... they'll just have horrible efficiency. The catalytic may stall and flat out die with very wet wood.

If I could do things over again, I'd have just purchased three years worth of wood in my first year, already split and stacked. Then I'd be able to just cut and split my own for each year thereafter. Instead, I killed myself for a few years, trying to keep up with current demand while trying to also get ahead. The result was a few years of less than properly seasoned wood. In fact, I'm still not as far ahead as I should be, after last winter's setback of not being able to harvest or process for a few months.

 

[LE615]

Yes... all firebox air enters above the front doors, in an effort to keep the stove glass clean (standard "air wash" concept).

There is an adjustable plate above the door. If you open the doors, bend down, and look up you'll see it's held in by two small (M5?) cap screws in slots, such that it is adjustable. I've tried many times to ask dealers and Jotul support, why this is adjustable, and what is the procedure for adjusting it, but have never received anything but a blank stare. I am sure they have to do with controlling that door air wash directivity or flow, but don't know why you'd want to move it one way, versus the other. So, on both of my stoves, I just set them to the middle of the adjustment range.

It might be worth adjusting that plate one way, and then the other, to see if it has an effect. I'd be interested if it did, since you seem to think that might be near the source of trouble.

Replacing this stove with a non-cat would be a shame. First, I think you will have trouble getting a non-cat going as easily as the catalytic, if you do have a draft problem, since they have no bypass damper to open. Second, they also require dry wood, so you're not solving any problem, there. Only difference is that they will still run with wet wood... they'll just have horrible efficiency. The catalytic may stall and flat out die with very wet wood.

If I could do things over again, I'd have just purchased three years worth of wood in my first year, already split and stacked. Then I'd be able to just cut and split my own for each year thereafter. Instead, I killed myself for a few years, trying to keep up with current demand while trying to also get ahead. The result was a few years of less than properly seasoned wood. In fact, I'm still not as far ahead as I should be, after last winter's setback of not being able to harvest or process for a few months.

If I replaced it for them I would buy an older pre EPA model like I have in my house. I burn whatever I want in it with no issue. I check the inside of the chimney each year for any kind of buildup and I've yet to find any but I force myself to check it anyways and not become complacent.
I hadn't noticed the adjustment you mentioned but I will check on it. I might have time to get by there tomorrow but I may not have the time until Monday.
I've got to go by lowes tomorrow so I'll grab a couple 45's then and give them a go when I get back out there.
What role does barometric pressure play in stove draw?

 

[LE615]

Well, I got around to swapping out the 90 for two 45's today with little if any improvement. it seems that where before I could open one front door an inch or two without smoke I can now open it about 3" or sometimes a bit more before I get smoke. It's still no where near what it needs to be so I'm kind of at a loss. I tried burning kiln dried material and I got less smoke but only because there was less smoke available to escape. It still smoked with the door open the same amount so it hasn't made any difference in whether there's a problem or not. Unless I think of something else between now and then, we'll be scraping the through the wall install and going through the roof before cold weather next fall. My father has mentioned getting rid of this stove all together because he wants to start fresh next year and not be trying to figure out problems with it. I'm thinking that I might talk him into going through the roof with this same stove but I don't wants the blame on me when it doesn't work out. Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a tough drafting situation. An easier breathing stove like the Quadrafire Isle Royale or a Pacific Energy Summit or Alderlea T6 may work a lot better. But before giving up on the stove I would blast some compressed air through any and all ports and parts except the cat itself. The compressed air may be too strong for a fragile cat. Remove the doghouse if there is one on this stove and blow it out well. Do the same from the bottom air intake on the off chance that some rodent shoved some nesting material in this stove at some time or a mud wasp made a nest in there.

 

[Ashful]

No doghouse on this stove. If you want to blow out the intakes, then cover one hole while you blow air in the other. The holes are under the stove, just forward of the rear legs.

What's your thinking on the inlet air, begreen? I would thing a clogged inlet should not be a factor in smoke spillage when the door is open.

This stove breathes about as easy as one ever could, with the bypass door open. It's literally a box with a hole in the top for the flue. No tubes, no baffles... just a straight shot up directly from the firebox.

 

[begreen]

Quite frankly I'm baffled. I normally blow out the stove to eliminate the possibility of any passages blocked, but now I just reread the entire thread and I see you already brought up the rodent possibility. Everything points to weak or varying draft. If the stove is eliminated then it could be that this is just a tricky location for draft due to surrounding trees or terrain. A vacu-stack cap is designed to help in this situation, but it's hard to say if it would be the cure.

One long shot is to make sure that the tee cap is on securely and not leaking.

 

[Smoke Signals]

It seems like a manometer to measure the draft may be in order.