Those damned Alcove Dimension Requirements

[JV_Thimble]

Arguably, this may be more of a rant than anything...

Our dealer came out today to do a final check before we actually schedule work. As it turns out, our hearth to ceiling is 76" (same as me). :smirk:

The only problem is that the Lopi Leyden stove that we planned on seems to be rather firm in the requirement for 84" height (per manual) in an alcove installation. So, we may be back to the egg with stove selection. The Hearthstone Phoenix (by way of the manual) would work, as would the Hearthstone Shelburne. Main issue is whatever the manual says is what the dealer will rely on in getting a local mechanical permit. The VC Encore manual is rather confusing on this issue, so I don't know if that would work.

Of course, this could also open the whole plan up to other stoves entirely. Are there other cast iron Cats out there? Soapstone stoves that don't look like it?

Thanks again in advance,

John

 

[BrotherBart]

Where is the alcove? I don't see an alcove.

 

[JV_Thimble]

Where is the alcove? I don't see an alcove.

Agreed - dealer was thinking along the lines of <84" height = alcove, and that he'd need to address this question with the mechanical permit guy...

 

[BrotherBart]

Tell the dealer that he can't make up his own dictionary.

al·cove (lkv)
n.
1. A recess or partly enclosed extension connected to or forming part of a room.
2. A secluded structure, such as a bower, in a garden.

My stove sits on a six inch tall hearth so there is only five feet between the top of it and the ceiling. Which I pay attention to since it is right square under my bed upstairs.

 

[JV_Thimble]

Tell the dealer that he can't make up his own dictionary.

al·cove (lkv)
n.
1. A recess or partly enclosed extension connected to or forming part of a room.
2. A secluded structure, such as a bower, in a garden.

My stove sits on a six inch tall hearth so there is only five feet between the top of it and the ceiling. Which I pay attention to since it is right square under my bed upstairs.

Thanks, BrotherBart, I think I'll try that...

 

[JV_Thimble]

My wife pointed out that the Lopi manual says to 'follow alcove instructions' when ceiling height is less than 84". So my last comment may be rather moot (or rather mute)...

 

[Renovation]

Where is the alcove? I don't see an alcove.

Agreed - dealer was thinking along the lines of <84" height = alcove, and that he'd need to address this question with the mechanical permit guy...

D-oh! I wish somebody told me that!

What is the definition of an alcove?

I assumed that any nook was an alcove, regardless of size or ceiling height, and couldn't figure out when an alcove became a room--restrictions on alcove depth, etc.

 

[begreen]

My wife pointed out that the Lopi manual says to 'follow alcove instructions' when ceiling height is less than 84". So my last comment may be rather moot (or rather mute)...

See if it is permissible to use a ceiling heat shield to cover this. Most intelligent inspectors will allow it. The shield can be cement board or a sheet of stiff metal on 1" standoffs. Paint it the color of the ceiling and be happy, (assuming the Leyden works well there).

 

[Renovation]

Tell the dealer that he can't make up his own dictionary.

al·cove (lkv)
n.
1. A recess or partly enclosed extension connected to or forming part of a room.
2. A secluded structure, such as a bower, in a garden.

My stove sits on a six inch tall hearth so there is only five feet between the top of it and the ceiling. Which I pay attention to since it is right square under my bed upstairs.

Okay, as usual, I'm confused.

In the photo, the area is a recess, isn't it? I cannot see if it is inset into a wall, and was assuming it was--or is it the end of a room?

And when does an alcove become a room?

Thanks!

 

[JV_Thimble]

See if it is permissible to use a ceiling heat shield to cover this. Most intelligent inspectors will allow it. The shield can be cement board or a sheet of stiff metal on 1" standoffs. Paint it the color of the ceiling and be happy, (assuming the Leyden works well there).

Dealer was thinking along these lines as well. Said the main thing is that the inspectors want to approve things that follow the manual, so a lot depends on the exact wording of the manual. He also mentioned that the local inspector is someone that is a pretty reasonable guy, so we'll see how this goes. I'll let the dealer do some digging for the moment, and keep you guys posted.

Amazing how much there is to learn about proper installations. Though it seems to me that this one may defy common sense a bit.

 

[firefighterjake]

Tell the dealer that he can't make up his own dictionary.

al·cove (lkv)
n.
1. A recess or partly enclosed extension connected to or forming part of a room.
2. A secluded structure, such as a bower, in a garden.

My stove sits on a six inch tall hearth so there is only five feet between the top of it and the ceiling. Which I pay attention to since it is right square under my bed upstairs.

HehHeh . . . why not?

We have manufacturers who give out burn time figures . . . but no one seems to have a definition as to what that definition is.

We have wood dealers selling wood as "seasoned" . . . but their definition of what is seasoned is all over the place.

We have folks here who insist on still using "face cords" . . . and enough said about that.

 

[JV_Thimble]

To clarify - a lot of this comes down to what the manuals say, and not so much someone making up what an alcove is.

For the Leyden - http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/100-01177_005.pdf - "Whenever the stove is placed in a location where the ceiling height is less than 8' tall, it is considered an alcove installation." - Which then requires a minimum 84" ceiling. And then - "Because of the reduced height, the special installation requirements listed below must be met." Which makes it sound like there's no allowance for shielding. Somewhere else in the manual, our dealer found something relating to allowances for NFPA clearance reductions.

For the VC Encore Cat, I found a figure that seemed to show a 66" allowable ceiling height, but that actually related to wall shielding requirements under certain conditions (Fig 25). http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2008/2000956_Encore_25501.pdf

Our dealer called both of the manufacturers on this, as well as Harmon. The gist of it all came down to a ceiling shield being needed. As it's not that obvious, we may be able to get away without one - the ceiling is 50" above either of these stoves. However, a shield is not something that will add to the appearance of our home. I'm still very tempted to go with the Encore, as I see no issue with the ceiling clearance, the manual says nothing about it, I like the stove, etc.

Other stoves that the dealer sells are the Hearthstones - both the Shelburne and Phoenix manuals have no problem with our ceiling configuration, so no shielding would be required. http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/assets/files/document_library/Shelburne8370Manual.pdf and http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/assets/files/document_library/Phoenix8612Manual.pdf

Both of these stoves have different looks than the Encore or Leyden and from each other. Phoenix would be best for level heat output, but would seemingly require painting the hearth for a better overall look - https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/65983/. The Shelburne would be ok, and certainly better than what we have now.

All in all, I wish we could install the Encore (or Leyden) without a ceiling heat shield. As that's unclear, we're in a bit of a quandry.

 

[Renovation]

To clarify - a lot of this comes down to what the manuals say, and not so much someone making up what an alcove is.

As that's unclear, we're in a bit of a quandry.

Thanks for your update John. I think it highlights the challenges of an "alcove" installation.

I think your confusion is very appropriate, and share it.

Clearly, at some point an "alcove" becomes a "room", but I have seen no specific guidance, in manuals or otherwise, as to when this occurs. Clearly a room has no additional requirements versus, well, a room, but when does an alcove become a room, or have the same rquirements?

For example, the Blaze King manual specifies a maximum alcove depth, but does not say why, or what to do if your room/alcove is deeper. I'm guessing their intent is to prevent installation in a tunnel, but what if the roomcove is deeper than an alcove, but the stove is not inset into it? That wouldn't seem to increase fire danger. And what if the roomcove is 10' wide by 4' deep, with a ceiling as high as the rest of the house? Is that any more dangerous than installation along any other wall?

As you've seen, manuals give limited and confusing guidance, Neither Blaze King nor Woodstock have responded to my emails, and here I've gotten comments both that my solution is unsafe, and that it is overkill.

In frustration, I finally decided to go the "overkill" route, and put a non-combustible ceiling in my roomcove.

I know that isn't a good solution for you, but at least it's confirmation that your confusion is reasonable and not unique.

FWIW, for you I suggest a Woodstock for the cat efficiency and control-ability, soapstone heat gentleness and appearance, and (I think) fairly low clearance requirements (Savage can confirm, chuckle.)

Regardless, good luck with a confusing problem!

 

[JV_Thimble]

Thanks, George

The dealer said this probably has a lot to do with the exact circumstances under which a particular stove was tested.

FWIW, leaning towards the VC Encore Cat. Want to get everything through the same dealer, so we have one point of contact in making sure this is all ok. Chimney system, stove, clearances, etc.

 

[Renovation]

Thanks, George

The dealer said this probably has a lot to do with the exact circumstances under which a particular stove was tested.

Agreed. And it is difficult to know what those circumstances are, and how that data applies to a particular install. Not because anyone is ignorant or negligent, but because communication and clarity are hard.

FWIW, leaning towards the VC Encore Cat. Want to get everything through the same dealer, so we have one point of contact in making sure this is all ok. Chimney system, stove, clearances, etc.

That sounds like a plan, and one way in which a good dealer can add value, especially if they will work with you to make sure you pass inspection.

The Encore sure is pretty, and looks sweet, with the cat and thermostat. I hope VC are past their troubles.

To hijack this thread to your other one about staining, have you considered a translucent white wash on those bricks? That might lighten things up, while preserving that great natural look and color variation you have going on. Likewise, consider a stain and polish for that concrete. It's all a matter of taste, but I've seen some gorgeous results.

Good luck, and happy burning!