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thoughts on green economy (how to get there)

Post in 'The Green Room' started by stoveguy2esw, Jul 3, 2010.

  1. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    was an ash can thread moved on advice from BeGreen with my agreement. be interested in comments on it



    wanna bring about change? get off the oil? great, who doesnt? problem is nobody has a workable realistic plan. one side is ‘drill baby drill” and the other is stop drilling and wait for the windmills. actually both have merits.

    face facts , we are in a down economy , i dont give a damn who is responsible (to be honest you and i are culpable as anyone) so jobs are scarce , revenues to the government are scarce, so its hard to get private industry to buy into jumping on the “green ” bandwagon when if it goes bust likeit did in the 70’s they would be left holding the bag.and we will need that bridge to get to where im going with this

    here’s my plan (overly simplified but here are the basics)
    1. start by drilling domestically with only US owned and based companies, and drill SAFELY!!! but drill. reason is this , this economy is based on cheap oil, as it sits now it needs it to prosper, drilling domestically with american companies doing it keeps money here and pays american workers. now before you get on your high horse and go partisan leftys, listen (or read it all) first. regulate the drill sites heavily with an eye toward environmental safety, put every means available into ensuring accidents are less likely to happen (i didnt say not happen because nobody can plan for every contingency) we only need 15 to 18 years of peak production so open all the available avenues , anwar , north slope, etc. driving down the cost of oil domestically will not only force out foriegn competition but provide jobs as well as kick start the economy here generating revenue to power this plan
    2. mandate all car companies which sell in the US come up with standards for universal battery powered vehicles both in power regeneration or battery changeout compatability. which must be fully in place in the next 8 years, meaning by year 9 no civilian internal combustion powered automobiles will be sold in the US (production of military vehicles would be exempt for obvious reasons) now a mandate by itself isnt enough im sure some grants , low interest loans and tax exemptions will be needed as well but the mandate must be there just to let the private sector know its for real this time.infrastructure will also need to be in place during this time, that means fast charge or battery swap “stations” (same as gas stations we have now) will need to crop up face it the people here spoiled as we are are not going to be happy with waiting 4 hundred miles 2 hours for a recharge, its got to be relatively fast or “john q.” aint going for it. hence my demand for compatability among all brands , if its a quick change battery station then its a short wait pop in and get a coke or coffee while the battery is changed then charge based on KW difference between the new and old batteries. the spent batteries can be hooked to a recharger in a rack.to be charged and installed later on a different vehicle

    3. all public wheeled transportation must move to non-internal combustion systems in the next 10 years (there is a head start already in place for this but its not electric. i believe electric busses would be designed and built in the decade. allow credits for this with a “credit for clunkers” deal for local governments to help defray costs along with a slightly boosted “per use” cost to help pay for it as well. i think its a pipe dream to have the nation wide public transportation that is enjoyed by europe today the country is simply not laid out right as a whole for this to work effectively. do it in urban areas where you can but with almost 90% of the country being “rural” its just not feasible to have that type of system.
    4. start building nuke plants as well as nuclear recycling plants (yes spent nuclear fuel can be safely recycled if not into usable fuel into somthing that can be sequestered safely, its expensive now but only because its “exotic”) along with tidal, geothermal, and wind powered grid generation nuclear is the ONLY way to get out of fossil fuel.

    the “green revolution” could happen , it will take “manhatten project” if not apollo project” resources and at least a decade maybe two to do it but its feasible. it will take a national will. it will take a shitload of money, and it will take a healthy economy. none of which we have right now. personally , i’d like to see us make the attempt at it but it will only happen with the ENTIRE will of the people, a lot of give and take from the left and right, and patience as this aint happening overnight. and it will atke some sides biting their lip for a bit while things they didnt want to see are carried out (both sides) the pure left isnt gonna like all the new holes in the ground , and the pure right isnt gonna like spending all this dough on stuff that aint gonna show immediate results. but give it 5-7 years if we adapt this course and it could be special.

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  2. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    I honestly don't think people have the will for it. It would take a lot of education to show people how this benefits all of us.
    Heck, over 1/4 of Americans...this July 4th...do not know what country we won our independence from!
    http://maristpoll.marist.edu/72-don’t-know-much-about-history/

    So, being realistic, we'd have to have a strong majority of Americans both educated in the subject AND willing to change. Not to be pessimistic, but lots of Americans - even if educated in that facts - would choose "freedom" over group action. I use freedom in quotes, because it would mean their freedom to, for instance, hire a Boeing 767 to take them to work if they could afford it (and if they could write it off, especially).

    This is not like Manhattan or Apollo - because it involved every person, family, house, business, transportation method, manufacturing method, etc. - it is vastly more complicated.

    The good news, IMHO, is that I think it will happen. But it will happen slowly, and is likely to only happen in many places when forced to by costs or government regulation.

    As I mentioned before, many states have embarked upon programs to cut down their energy use significantly. As is typical with these things, some of the efforts are BS...but many of them will bear fruit. In Ma. we are already close to the Europeans in terms of less energy use per capita, and we expect it to head down much further. This involves ZERO lifestyle choices (for now) - it is more systems based. There is a lot of low hanging fruit on the conservation end.

    Although electric cars and all that stuff sounds good, I think that the first large part of the effort will be simply common sense and boring stuff - insulation, new heating systems, better CAFE standards, etc.

    Once people understand that this will work, they are then likely to accept the next phases. The quest for energy and energy efficiency will never end, so there is nowhere we have to get to! We just have to use our heads for continual improvement with our eye toward sustainability.
  3. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    There's a big tizzy right now with plug-in cars because how do you pay for the roads when everyone is filling up at home. I could live pretty easy with a car that had only 100 mile radius, and that is true for 80% of the drivers on the road. So, if 70% of our petroleum diet goes for transportation and 80% of that is electric we've suddenly cut our oil need by 50%. Its that easy. But stand back and get ready to watch massive loss of jobs. For the most part a lack of consumption puts people out of work.
  4. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    The idea of battery swapping, while being popularly promoted is intensely impractical. Kind of like musical chairs, who ends up responsible for the worn out battery pack?
    Additionaly, it is un-needed. The Chevy Volt has a forty mile range on pure electric, with a total range of 300 plus miles. Since the average person drives under forty miles per day, no need to swap batteries. For those who drive farther, the Nissan Leaf has an all electric range of 100 miles per day. The Tessla Roadster an all electric range of 300 miles. And that is just the beginning.
    The lies about lack of battery technology are over. All we need now is the will to change.
  5. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Um, yeah. Somebody has to process the lithium, manufacture the batteries, build the electric cars, as well as the greatly increased demand for solar electric, once people realize they can create their own automobile fuel. Additionaly, the money saved from petro-purchases may well go into the general consumerism fund.
  6. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The manufacturer. The idea is to support cradle-to-grave responsibility for what we make. That encourages the manufacture of components that can be refitted and have recycleable parts. The idea of a company taking resources from the earth, making something for profit and then dumping them in landfills (a tax payer expense) has to end. Lead acid batteries have been this way for a long time.

    http://www.batteryrecycling.com/Battery Recycling Process
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Item #1 is already taking shape in Israel with Nissan/Renault as partners. It's called the Better Place project. http://www.betterplace.com/ However, the head of Nissan doesn't think it will work in the US for the same reason trans-national high speed rail won't work. The country is too big.

    http://gas2.org/2009/11/17/nissan-global-ev-chief-battery-swapping-likely-wont-work-in-us/

    An Apollo moon level project would be to develop practical anti-gravity. Eliminate tires and you eliminate rolling resistance and a ton of oil that goes into tires. It sounds a little crazy, but we are getting closer to this becoming possible.

    http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketscience-02t.html
  8. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    web,

    the idea is to make it maybe not a manhattan but actually more likie apollo, the nation was behind the government in that project we (as a people) wanted it. the trick is to want it as a people. thats obama's job , get us to believe and want. its a tough job to do and not one i would want to drop on someone lightly. if obama has one gift (and he does) its the ability to rally people. IMHO as a statesman he's a total failure but as an orator he is the best ive seen in my lifetime and he has the full weight and power of the united states in his pocket if he asks for it properly (he doesnt know or believe this but its true)

    rahm emmanuel made the biggest mistake of the 21st century recently not by his idiology , but simply by his thinking too small, the gulf oil disaster has opened a lot of eyes, mine included. but the message we are getting is the wrong one , instead of blame and finger pointing , this disaster (which he himself professes 'shouldnt be wasted" ) is being wasted. america needs a positive message, we need "we should be looking to do this" instead of 'blame bush" or the reply of "whatever" im not gonna waste time thinking about that( i ask that you dont either).

    think outside the box for a bit...

    imagine what we could do with a non-fossil fueled economy, what it would do for the planet, you yourself have quoted how much petroleum we use versus what we've produced, lamented on what coal has done to this country (and you personally) well here's yoru chance, for millenia men dreamed of walking on the moon , we did it in a decade with far less technical ability than we have now. is it so hard to imagine we couldnt do this? ive spent hours on end thinking about this (yes republican though i am , ive done so, is it hard to believe that?)

    accept with conditions, we as a country need to number one , get on our feet, when we get there (as well as we struggle to get there) we need to keep the goal in sight. not blame the other side for holding us back. its gonna take both sides to make this work anyway.

    just imagine what it could be if america (all of america) got behind a non-fossil movement in the way we got behind apollo, the way we mobilized in 1941, the stolid resolve shown on 9/12/01. not the politics but the people, "John Q". our friend john q is why we should argue about politics, not rush, or maddow or oreilly or hannity, but john q. "we" are "john Q" we pay taxes, we make things, we buy gas at the pump(and lament it when its a nickle cheaper the next day, admit it , ya gotta, (happened to me today i bought gas at 2.59 yesterday evening and it was 2.49 today at the same station) holiday weekend for pete's sake ,it always goes up right?)


    web , what im saying is this , look to the future not to the past. im willing if you are. i respect you that much, we disagree, but i think we agree at the same time.can the pessimism embrace optimism if everyone wer to do so we could get behind this thing as a nation, and maybe , just maybe we could get it done this time.
  9. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Heres some info from some folks who disagree with A Better Place: http://www.hybridcars.com/news/skeptics-question-electric-car-battery-swapping-25627.html
  10. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I appreciate your thoughts and enthusiasm Mike. I have been thinking on this subject since the seventies and contributing where I can. I think we can all agree on this - we need to provide a better future for our families, children, our planet. The earth is finite and we are starting to see humankind pushing it to the limits.

    The gulf tragedy is having an effect. It enabled Obama to get the G20 to agree to change the language in the climate pact from voluntary oil subsidy cuts to mandatory:
    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/27/news/sc-dc-global-finance-20100628
  11. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    very , very good dune! especially what i highlighted

    at 300 miles a "quick swap" battery (recyclable, as most batteries are now at least rechargable ones) would be feasible (need one to get one , like a core charge. batteries do wear but are recylable or disposable in proper facilities make them available for the "stations" which would be stuck with the bulk of them. it could well be an industry by itself, the idea is that people could plg their car in at night to travel locally only needing battery swap or "remote recharge" when travelling , or if they screw up and leave it unplugged. the electrical industry would play a part in this by subsidizing battery recycling or disposal , and pass teh cost along to the public (after all plugging your car in at night and paying for it on your electric bill could very well be cheaper than buying a hundred bucks a week worth of gas)looking at that alone means the money is out there. im looking at the travelling public when i look at fast change batteries, if ya go to the beach you aint getiung there without at least 1 fillup on the way , and the way back, "john q" aint gonna want to way a couple hours for a charge, a 15 minute batery change would be easier to accept as the norm so work for that instead of the "carging station" angle. when at home , theres no need for swapping like i said , plug it in and go to work ,plug it in when you get home
  12. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Hey Mike, Glad you are onboard. I guess there is little point arguing about whether to swap batteries or not. What matters is that we are headed in the right direction. For some time now, here on this forum, if I wanted to get something going, I just had to mention electric cars. To see such a turnaround is inspiring to say the least. Of course T hasn't checked in yet.
  13. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    also right on the money (holy chit , me and dune agreeing twice on the same thread?????!!!!!) if that can happen anything can (never doubted your intelligence bro, just dont agree with your politics)

    im thinking rotating lithium anode but its not my field, im sure someone else who is vastly smarter on this than i am would come up with the battery configuration.

    BTW doesnt afghanistan have a crapload of lithium deposits on hand , just dig it up , they could be the 21st century saudi's if they were smart about it. maybe a friendly reminder to them of what tehy are sitting on followed by our getting the heck out (providing they as a country get their chit together, was there in 87 wasnt pretty then , aint pretty now) would be a good deal for all involved as well
  14. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    good point but the data was based by mercedes on 40 year old technology, i think we could do better than the old "lead acid" batteries of that time. BG the fact that the country is so big is the reason for swappable batteries the arguement defeats itself in this case.
  15. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    What the heck are you talking about?
  16. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    hell dune, ive 'been onboard " with this for a while now , just didnt know it was lively in here, in the ash can its too partisan to even bring it up til i got upset enough to do so. i fully believe that electric is the only plausible way to go in as far as transportation , untilities wise we may butt heads im strong on nukes with suppliments with wind solatr etc...

    be advised its not a turnaround on my part , i have my feelings on how to get there (which IMHO is the big battle) but , its a lot nicer to acknowledge that we both have a common cause even though you and i will undoubtably butt heads on how it gets implemented. i meant what i said about "o" he has his strengths and weaknesses, hopefully he will use his strengths to this purpose if so i will (gawd!!) have to forgive his weaknesses. so write who you can (as i have)
  17. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Who I can what?
  18. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    write to , AKA congresscritters senators etc...

    the more folks who show interest in somthing the more it catches hold (think tea party as much as it pains you) the idea is to get more for what you pay in, at least my read is thus (i dont participate but i can understand their ideals)

    put it this way , if as many people were to publically push (and do this without demonizing anyone which draws the negative to the negative) for an ideal such as this (while actively bugging the HELL out of your elected representatives (heck request an audience at least you get to talk to a staffer, beat up on him , bring as many voters as you can) my local member of the house Bob Goodlatte's staffers probably know me by my first name , i write all the time, does it help , who knows , but im getting my moneys worth outa my vote and if i dont im voting for the next guy , thats democracy. thing is , if you do not participate , the elected do not know you nor do they know your ideas, or your ideals so they must assume that yours and theirs are the same.

    BTW im extremely happy with Bob's job in representing me and my fellow Virginians
  19. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, Dude. I guess my point is that I came to this site to promote alternative energy, found some like minds, learned way more than I've passed on, but also from the beginning found a lot of resistence to forms of alternative energy other than wood, mostly along partisan lines. It seems like things might be loosening up a bit, but then maybe I am just being silly.
  20. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Battery swap stations make sense in densely populated areas where daily distance traveled is under say 60 miles. But they don't make sense when it would take a 30 mile drive to reach the station and 30 miles to get back like it would in some rural areas. The transportation nut is going to have to be cracked from multiple directions. In some areas fuel cells running on locally generated hydrogen might make more sense. In in some limited areas fossil fuel may still be the best for the foreseeable future. Trucking is a whole nuther problem that is going to take revising. Eventually all of us are going to have to get used to more local sources of what we eat and use. Strawberries in December is a bit over the top for fuel consumption. I'm glad local wineries and breweries are ramping up and making some good stuff.
  21. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    alternative minds are out there , most of which hiding under the guise of "realist" i can understand that , weaning america off oil is a quantum leap, kinda like if american had to pay big bucks to use the internet , wouldnt have been the boom it was.


    essentially , america is a petulant child, it has to find "veggies" tasty before it will indulge. the trick is in the cooking (my daughter never had a problem with veggie but i tend to "cook" not "heat up" this is the dillemma, we have to "cook" not just heat up (thats what carter did in the 70's and what obama unfortunatly seems to be doing now (not necessarily a dig on him as most havent even turned the stove on) but , he isnt hammering the green agenda very much at all (not even the "gore" vision of cap and get rich, he easily could be dumping on us, for that i give him credit albeit critisism as well , cause it shows he isnt doing anything) he needs to wake up and look at this for the mess (and oddly enough blessing) it is. then he needs to work on public support as well as look to find ways that are fiscally responsable while socially necessary to convince congress to quit playing "all the credit none of the blame" and start serving OUR interests.
  22. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Right. I wonder if battery swaps would be pretty suitable for the big rigs, at existing truck stops. Big rigs could sacrifice a bit of cargo capacity in exchange for extra range. The savings in fuel cost would more than offset the lost revenue.
  23. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    actually battery swap staions make more sense n rural ,or interstate corridor sectors bacause in urban areas cars will be "plugged in" to load batteries whaile you sleep and give all te power needed to make local stops under 'hotel " load essentially if you use your car as i do , back and forth to work (a couple miles one way in my case) i could go months or years without needing a new battery as i would simply plug in my car at home each night to "top off", travel is different, truckers will need stations, vacationers would need stations. but locals , naaah they are their own station. actually , fuel cells make more sense for truckers but less for "john q" and his "runabout"


    as for strawberries in december, WHY??? !!!, do we REALLY need strawberries in december??? or are we spoiled by the availability of them?
  24. Dune

    Dune Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, I don't think the power of any president would be able to overcome the influence of well funded lobbyists.
  25. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    if thats the case , we have nobody to blame but ourselves, after all , this is supposed to be a government of the people,by the people, for the people. im as guilty as you and everyone else.


    "where have all the soldiers gone..."

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