Yup, 4" is the next step.Yeah your 90s and 45s are causing your over all length to be more than the 15 for standard 3" vent.
You will need 4 inch in there somewhere.
Oh, that's in the works...but with the plasma. Seriously thinking about setting up a 3'x5' table for it.With your CNC you should be able to do all kinds of cool engraving and cut designs.
A nice deer and forest engraving going up each beam of the X would almost give it a totem pole vibe..
Starting out with enough steel to make it correct, instead of 'I only have 12', what can I make with it' I did before. That's the reason the ash chamber is smaller than the rest.So what are the changes you have made from V1 and why?
Heat output: My house stays at 70 upstairs. I'd really like to make 75. It's the only thing heating the house, which is good, but I'd just like output a bit more. Larger tubes will also help with cleaning.What shortcomings in V1 are you hoping to improve apon?
Right now running it can range between 30-60lbs per day, depending on how I run it. I'm averaging 44lbs right now running it at about 500F all day. I can run it at 650F and get 30lbs per day (shut all but 1/4 OA with 1/4 exhaust) or empty it in 10hrs with everything full open...but only maintaining 400F. The more air it gets, the faster it burns, but the cooler the stack and less heat transmits through the walls. Bassackward, but that's how it runs.What is the fuel range per day for V1, sounds like it has a pretty healthy appetite already?
I'm pretty sure m issue is more the way it feeds than heat or anything else. With premium pellets (pine or hardwood...or actually ANY pellets) the issue comes from stupidity on my part. I should have fed it straight down and not trying to get gravity to make an exception for me. Also, the tube feeding constricts somewhat, going from 2.5" to about 2.4" at the bottom (the nature of using car exhaust pipe fittings). New one will go from 2" or 2.5" at the top to 3.0" at the bottom, and it'll work WITH gravity this time. (Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!) I think it's just a matter of making sure things don't get smaller.Mega cool I have to say.
Yes sticking pellets are no good. I haven't heard about the Wiseway having an issue but they are insistent on using quality pellets. That may be a large part of trick. If you want to burn rubbish then maybe gravity feed is not the way to go.
Do you think there is a correlation between stove temp and sticking? ie do you have more problems if the stove is hotter?.
The American phrase of "No $h!t" comes to mind While I expected that everyone goes through this when starting from scratch, I'd hoped I'd learned a bit seeing how others have done theirs. But, as with anything 'new', there are bugs. If you can fix the bugs, things work. If not, or if you don't want to, you get another lawn ornament or another trip to the scrap yard. While being in WV, lawn ornaments are OK, but only if it's a used appliance or an old car with the wheels off. This would almost be considered 'art'...and some folks would think I'm uppity....and I'm kinda scared of banjo's. (see the movie Deliverance if you're unsure of the comparison!) LOL!You are dealing with so many variables at the same time that getting ideal performance is a real big ask..
I think the original 2" was just too small, also getting the burn right. Bad burn/unknown 'ratio' = too much smoke = too much soot = clogged pipes. They can be cleaned with a long bottle brush (from amazon.com) but being able to get the regular stove brush into them will be much nicer. Original one used round holes cut into the large tubes, and the cross tubes welded over them. A 2" holesaw doesn't account for the corners, and I didn't file or grind them out. (hell, I didn't think it would even work when I first started) The new one has full sized square holes cut into them. Instead of 'corners' (round tube/square hole), it's pretty close fit. Should assist with both airflow and ash/soot removal. Especially the use of 3" cross tubes.As I see it getting the fuel supply and burn system right are the most important and it sounds like you are getting there. Keeping the heat exchanger tubes clean is also very important and it sounds like you are onto that as well..
'zactly. A fan would really assist the combustion, but that kinda defeats the purpose. I'm hoping more, or at least better airflow, through it will help in all regards.Minimum combustion air flow is important as you describe. This also reduces particulate matter which is a problem (i think) with the Wiseway but could be addressed. The downside is that crud will build up quicker in the tubes which is why easy cleaning is so important..
We've seen -20F through 115F here in the past 14yrs I've been in WV. I've seen snow that only the top few feet of the telephone poles stuck out of, to winters with little/no snowfall and more above freezing days than below freezing. While it will be completely dependent on how much heat the owner wants, there will still be variables in how fast it wants to feed. Fast burning pellet = less heat = more used to get it warm and the inverse as well. Throw in a correct or incorrect installation, cross winds, humidity, pressures....ballpark is all we'll ever get. I'm sure manufacturers have been 'bothered' by folks asking those questions since the beginning of time: "Why doesn't my stove do "exactly" what you said it would do?" Yeah....I love those kinda people too!You and I have very different heating requirements so I would see 44lbs as the maximum anyone would want to burn here. 30lbs is a average 24hr run for us so you are well in the range we want. I think using heat recovery from the flue would improve efficiency further but that is not an issue at this point..
Using all 'stock' materials will help greatly, since they're the easiest to acquire. I hate having to special order anything. Having someone build your hoppers (just a can with a slope towards the hole) to your spec will be a simple matter. Building a jig for this will be easy as it's all right angles. I cut all the materials (and most holes) using a plasma cutter and a speed square. http://www.amazon.com/Swanson-SO101-7-inch-Speed-Square/dp/B00002255O/ The use of a CNC would only be needed for the burn chamber, and only if you didn't want to clean up after a plasma is done. (oh, and the cool factor of having a CNC in your garage)From a construction point of view I would be using mig in a jig with either the robot or by hand so easy layout will eventually be important. If the stove has separate parts it makes manufacturing much easier. You dont need to worry about that. I can adapt the successful design for mass production. I am not concerned that your hopper won't hold 2 bags. Most of our customers pour their fuel into buckets then into the hopper. Height and ease of access is most important, even 1 bag is enough..
Great. Seems the market is slowly filling in the blanks in a wide open market. Is there much of a market for pellet stoves, or is it more/still wood/biomass? We can get the whole email chain started, maybe a file share site to make it easier to pass documents back and forth. While I'm partially a computer guy, I'm mostly a hands on, shake hands, hold this wrench kinda guy. You might have other ideas, and since you're paying , I'll let you tell me what you need to see.I am really interested in the concept and we will have the fuel supply (from a large new mill in Australia) by mid year so I see great potential for a gravity stove in 2016 in Australia. I would be most interested in seeing pics or rough sketches of your ideas and want to work with you on this. Please contact me directly.
Will do. I'm sure we can come up with something. Let me prove this next one works, and we'll set something up. Even in WV we have Skype (what I was using to talk to my brother in Tazzie, when he's not on the ice) We'll work something out.I cannot come over now because we are about to move into heating season but could visit in October onwards. My wife is going to LA in November but she would kill me if I sent her to see a stove! One of my manufacturing associates is in the US regularly and I could send him to see you if we can get things moving. Lets make a date.
Yessir.... on the way.Cool, you have my address, drop me a note please.....
$1000ton? I thought the local stove shop was expensive,....damn! (See below on a 'solution' if the other one doesn't work out)Tee Australian market is primarily wood burners. Current annual sales are around 35,000 units per year. Our manufacturer supplies 12,000 of those (unfortunately not through us). In comparison pellet stoves are minute. Annual sales are in the order of 350 of which we sold 300. Why is the market so small; pellets are way too expensive at $1,000/ton. Why is our share so big; we are the only company who have done any development and stand behind our stoves as multi-fuel. Plus the large retailers can make more money selling their current wood burners so why would they muddy the waters with some pellet thingy?
Good luck. A "no electricity required" might help that blossom a bit. I have heard so many 'my wife doesn't like the noise' since I've been talking to folks....amazing not more folks have come up with a solution.Is there potential here? Hell Yeah! When we started 5 years ago there were no sales whatsoever and no one knew what a pellet stove was. It is definitely snowballing as people get an idea of what the concept is. Normally we see no demand until Easter, this year we have sold 10 units in the last week. Things are on the move. We are hoping for 500 this year.
Market looks ripe for the picking....IF the pellet mill starts up. If not, that 'could' be a great next business. I hesitate to use Chinese and Quality in the same sentence, but some of their larger pellet mills have been getting decent reviews, and right now they aren't 'that' expensive. I'm sure there's a .au.gov program that would help with the purchase and business start up? Maybe even for a domestic or European model? The German ones are both extremely efficient AND extremely expensive. Hell of an initial investment, but in a proven market a smart call. Emerging market....not so sure.Of course we are starting to see some competition from the majors as it is in their nature to not let a competitor get a free run but our price, knowledge, service and products are all superior so people go to them for a look then on to us to buy.
Without cheaper pellet prices we need to rely on our multi-fuel conventional stoves but if we get cheaper pellets (which I will confirm in a couple of weeks when one of our stoves goes in for Aussie Standard testing by the same company that will be building the pellet plant) the the market will open up for gravity feed stoves, if we can get down to the 1.0gm/kg particulate standard. We do it now, I see no reason why we cannot make yours do it as well. If you can make it work, we can make it work better.
He's still on the ice if I understand it (McMurdo if I'm not mistaken) and I'm not sure of his plans for 'off season'. I think they're going to stay in Taz, but??? He has dual citizenship, has worked for taz.gov his last time there, so he's probably an easy hire. We don't talk too much.Is that Tasmania? When you email send his number and I will give him a call.
We'll figure it out. I am working on getting a cell that works. Cell phone doesn't work at the house most days and I don't have a landline. Since no one calls except my mother, there's really no need for me to push it.Small world, we have it too! My computer is over 15 years old with very few upgrades so it does not like it. I use QQ on the phone all the time, like skype on steroids. That is our best bet I can set you up with it no sweat. Still I get 100 free minutes per month of international calls so send your number and I will just call.
You've patented gravity? I don't mean to be an ass on this, but I have a feeling you and I are going to be discussing this a lot.enjoy reading this thread . takes me back 15 years when I first started experimenting on the wiseway. there are a lot you still have to learn. I'll just point out a couple of them. your square heat ex changer does not slow the draft down enough to bring your flew gas temp down. you will not be able to use pellet vent pipe because your flew gas temp will exceed its rating and class A vent pipe is very hard to find in anything less that 5" I have found on the wiseway that 32 degree bends work best. At 30 degrees it slows the draft down to much and at 34 degrees the flew gas temps are to high. In order to sell your stove it will need to be EPA certified and need to be safety tested or you can't put it in a home . I have spent over $40,000 in testing and every time I make improvements in the stove I need to retest before I can sell it. Product liability insurance is very expensive. One more very important expense to you if you choose to market your stove is the royalties you will need to pay me. I spent 6 1/2 years and tens of thousands of dollars to get my utility patent ( just so you know a utility patent is the way something works not how it looks changing my W shape into a square does not circumvent my patent.) As long as you intend to build and experiment on this for personal use have at it.,but if you intend on marketing it you will have to deal with all these issues.
Have fun Gary
sorry not trying to open a can of worms , Its not gravity that is patented it is the way gravity feeds the pellets duel burn chambers the basket the secondary burn plate the way the draft is controlled and the air flow through the stove that is patented. If you can build a gravity feed stove not using these patented processes more power to you. You are where i was 15 years ago. in order for you to pass the EPA testing you need to control the fuel burn rate precisely in 4 different burn rates for 3 hours each. That is very difficult to do with a gravity feed stove. Good luck wish you the best. (you have referenced wiseway several times in your threads so it will not be hard show that you are aware of what you are doing.You've patented gravity? I don't mean to be an ass on this, but I have a feeling you and I are going to be discussing this a lot.
Gary: Not to worry.
I already mentioned I had no interest in selling them commercially in the US.
Too many .gov agencies in the mix, and too many liability issues.
I don't have to fill a house with smoke and flames to figure that out.
And yes, I have referenced Wiseway several times.
It's kinda hard to reference all the other gravity fed pellet stoves out there.
I won't reference yours again. I Promise.
You might, however, want to discuss approval and certification agencies with the guy who alerted you to these threads.
He seemed to be the resident expert on the process in the other thread.
Maybe he was the one that got you your UL listing, since he's adamant that the UL doesn't approve pellet appliances.
Interesting that he hasn't mentioned that to you.
If chickenman can make a bunch of this design in Australia, more power to him.
He already has all the information I had, sent freely and without financial interest or compensation.
I might, however, ask for Tiah Eckhardt's phone number....since they're practically neighbors
For the rest of the world, my drawings will also be released free of charge to anyone who wants them.
They'll be out on the web shortly.
Not like you can't figure out what you need from the drawings, but it'll probably make things easier.
For those that were interested in this project, thanks for the kind words.
Mods: you can go ahead and delete the threads and my account.
I got all I needed here, and it was everything I'd expected to find.
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