VC Defiant: Stove Distance from Wall, R-Values

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tiber

Feeling the Heat
Hearth Supporter
Oct 4, 2009
453
Philadelphia
The VC Defiant manual is a bit lacking for the installation instructions. I know how to build a chimney, and the clearance of the wall thimble is clear.

If you actually sit down with your manual and cut out a template and play cardboard legos, you'll notice that for a corner installation they call for far more clearance than they do for a parallel installation, which happens to be in a corner. It's more than enough to make me suspect a typo in the manual or a bad metric to imperial conversion or cut and paste or god knows what. I'm going to err on the side of caution and do the install parallel to the wall, in a corner. It also makes the hearth pad a lot less goofy to build. If you're playing along at home, they give you a measurement from the center of the flue collar to the walls, but this measurement fails the minimum clearances of the stove corners to the walls. This measurement is consistent when doing the stove parallel to the wall. (It also makes the OAK play along nicely).

The hearth pad is easy - a hearth pad of 54 inches by 54 inches gives me more than enough pad to put any stove on there with some spare room. It's been a marginal pain getting wonderboard at any decent price - Home Depot carries it. Lowes doesn't. Lowes is typically clueless and tried to sell me "fire rated" sheetrock. (Not up to code - you will die attempting this). Wonderboard R-1.92 @ 1 inch, and putting a layer of tile over it (R-12.5 @ 1 inch) means that a half inch of wonderboard (R-.96) with 3/8ths inch tile on top (R-4.69) gives me an R value of 5.65 for the hearth. The defiant manual wants an R value of 0.48 for the hearth. However, this number seems low and I want to make sure we're in the realm of sanity here. I plan on putting 1/8ths plywood under it just to make the whole thing 1 inch tall off the floor. Enough to make sure I trip over the pad reloading the stove in the dark, anyway.

The wall protection requirement is wild and this is really where I want input. According to the VC Defiant manual, a half inch of wonderboard (R-.96) standing one inch off the floor, one inch away from the wall on steel studs is enough to satisfy this requirement. The problem is the manual disagrees with NFFA211 and the jotul manual (the manual I'm "sanity checking" against since it cites code but is lacking on illustration) on if I'm measuring the stoves offset from the "wall" (being the original sheetrock) or the wall shields. The VC Defiant manual has the arrows ending at the shields, the jotul manual has them ending at the walls, and the township says I need to submit drawings before they'll answer any questions.

Also since grout is perfectly happy to catch on fire, I'm planning on using standard issue mortar for the hearth pad. However, I really doubt this is going to work on the wall shields. Anyone have a fireproof grout to suggst so I can tile vertical surfaces?
 
Seems to be a lot of errors here. Which Defiant is this, the original or the Defiant Encore? Cement board has an R value of .52 per inch or .26 for the 1/2" sheet. And 3/8" tile is definitely not R 4.69, it's more like .04. For the hearth, just use two layers of cement board to exceed the hearth R value requirement of R=.48. Put a decent quality tile on it and be done. Normal tile grout is not flammable at all.

For the side/back clearance the distance is measured to the nearest combustible surface, not the wall shield. Normally this is the drywall behind the shield. You can use doubled up, 3-4" strips of wonderboard instead of steel stud as a stand off to create the 1" air space behind the wall shield. 1" stubs of copper pipe can also be used as standoffs.
 
checking my notes - I am retarded and transposed K and R values. That being said... Everywhere the above post says R, make it K.

This gives me the following new (correct) numbers:
3/8ths tile - negligable
.5 inch wonderboard - .25 R
plywood - negligable
Total - .25R

I actually have been having a hard time finding the R value "from the horses mouth" on wonderboard. Similar products hover around .5 so we agree on that number.

This is a newer (3 year old) defiant. The local stove shop said that the defiant with bottom heat shields marginalizes the R value of the hearth pad and merely makes the requirement for it to "noncombustable". Since I want the OAK I believe I have to remove the bottom heat shield which then means I need .48 R. However - looking at the newest defiant manual online, they don't publish the R value requirement. By my best guess an R of 3 is going to cover me for anything in the future. Local stove shop didn't know about either the OAK (didn't have one in stock to look at) or the R value.
 
Yes, there are some varying values posted. I think Craig has it correct on his article: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/k_values_what_does_it_all_mean USG lists the r value at .52/inch for Durock on their website, so that is the number I use for cement board.

Use a couple sheets of durock or wonderboard and it will be at r = .52. USG also has a good document for constructing wall shields that I have posted in other threads.
 
Shoot me a link if you'd be so kind?

Is R .5 the normal hearth value for most installs?
 
Good freaking god. After a ton of googling I found it. NPFA 211 explicitly says the measurement is to the combustable walls, so once again the VC manual is sketchy. I have access to the IFC books too and they're terrible about this stuff. Code is a mess. The VC manual is a mess. Where's the joy in anything anymore?

Just for anyone playing along at home, the VC manual wants a quarter inch noncombustable pad under the stove with bottom heat shields. Without the heat shields it's only OK to install it on level concrete over bare earth. I can't imagine they sold many of these sans bottom heat shield. ASTM E136 materials are considered noncombustable. So gypsum which can pass this (not all will - again, browsing home depot) will fit my bill with an R value of 1 or so for one inch. Since I'm really shooting to future proof this hearth with an R of 2.5 or better, I need three inches. Or if I can't find it, I need SIX inches of wonderboard. Yikes. Again for the At Home players, the hearth pads at the stove shop are only R=1: http://www.northplainsfireplaceandrusticfurniture.com/index_new.html

If course they make a hearth pad which does R=2.5 - but check out that picture with the tile stack!
 
tiber said:
Shoot me a link if you'd be so kind?

Is R .5 the normal hearth value for most installs?

There is no normal hearth value for most installs. The hearth requirement is stove specific. It could be from as little as ember protection (many Jotuls and PE stoves) to R=2.0 or higher (some Englander and Hearthstone soapstone stoves).

Here is the Durock spec:

“Space-saving Durock® brand cement board is listed by Underwriters Laboratories, Inc., for use with UL-listed
solid-fuel room heaters and fireplace stoves. Used as a wall shield, Durock cement board reduces by two-thirds
the manufacturer-specified clearance (minimum 12”) between the room heater or stove and a combustible wall
surface. Durock cement board may also be used as a floor protector in place of one layer of 3/8” thick millboard.
(Having a thermal conductivity of k ≤ 0.84 Btu in./(ft. ² h °F) in the minimum dimensions specified by the room
heater/stove manufacturer.)”
http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Co...d_Submittal_Sheets/CB198_Durock_Cement_Bd.pdf

The R/K value specs are here on page 2:
http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Co...ts/DrckCement_Board-Submittal_Sheet_CB399.pdf
1/2” Durock R= .26, K value = 1.92
 
tiber said:
Good freaking god. After a ton of googling I found it. NPFA 211 explicitly says the measurement is to the combustable walls, so once again the VC manual is sketchy. I have access to the IFC books too and they're terrible about this stuff. Code is a mess. The VC manual is a mess. Where's the joy in anything anymore?

Just for anyone playing along at home, the VC manual wants a quarter inch noncombustable pad under the stove with bottom heat shields. Without the heat shields it's only OK to install it on level concrete over bare earth. I can't imagine they sold many of these sans bottom heat shield. ASTM E136 materials are considered noncombustable. So gypsum which can pass this (not all will - again, browsing home depot) will fit my bill with an R value of 1 or so for one inch. Since I'm really shooting to future proof this hearth with an R of 2.5 or better, I need three inches. Or if I can't find it, I need SIX inches of wonderboard. Yikes. Again for the At Home players, the hearth pads at the stove shop are only R=1: http://www.northplainsfireplaceandrusticfurniture.com/index_new.html

If course they make a hearth pad which does R=2.5 - but check out that picture with the tile stack!

Search and read up on the articles and posts for other hearth designs here. A stack of wonderboard is only one way to achieve a high R value. Most use a captive airspace or an insulation board like Micore under the cement board to increase the insulative qualities.
 
After pouring over the fire code and doing the paperwork, I'm only slightly out of order. ;)

The paperwork will probably take three weeks to get approved and requires final inspection where I live. I'm onto pricing out the chimney material. This means that I am going to build this hearthpad and set the stove on it with three people willing to pick up awfully heavy objects and then pray I don't have to move it (again).

Note that if it says "fire rated" it means it will DESTROY your tools. Fire rated sheetrock? Tougher to cut with little fibery things which prevent you from breaking it cleanly. Fire proof tile (ceramic, porcelain, apparently there's "lightweight" tile which explodes when heated) also destroys whatever blade you attempt to use. High temp thinset? There's nothing thin about it. I'd like to give thanks to Norristown Home Depot. I bought the materials from them and had to run back with my tail between my legs when my tile saw gave up. They ran it through their wetsaw on my cut lines for free, which is awfully nice of them since I needed about 8 cuts.

The plan it to take this pad (R=.58) and put up wall protection. I decided against making a pad which you could launch the shuttle from after reading a few stove manuals and realizing R=.5 was the requirement. The pad will be trimmed with wood. Also the wood trim on the door is more than six inches from the stove...

image_00087.jpg


I was going to crack open a homebrew but screw it. Baby is stirring. Must sleep while I can...

(Yes there's a tile missing on the bottom right. Yours truly dropped it getting out of the car since it was still wet and I was too embarrassed to go back tonight).
 
Slowly the project is coming together. After this its getting the township papers and I'm gold for doing/documenting the chimney install.

Alright, question about the cat setup - the catalytic is DOA (has a hole in it). The foam type stuff is in marginal condition, with smallish cracks. Does it matter if the foam stuff is cracked or not? Any cleaning tips? Just a stiff brush?

Also we did this with three men. Next time, they can keep the stove. ;)

image_00088.jpg


Just for reference this is not the stoves final position on the hearth and yes those walls need to be shielded.
 
By "foam stuff" do you mean the refractory housing for the cat? If so, yes it is important and somewhat fragile. It's probably best to post pictures of this to show front and top view.
 
(Warning - pics are huge)
Please excuse me if I'm not going to lift everything out of the stove again. I am really, really sore.

I got out the big camera so I can have huge photos:
http://knarrnia.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/foam.jpg <- Mystery foam device. If it's supposed to be one piece with his buddy below him (not pictured) it's done. The one below him is rough around the edges but isn't DOA. I can't find the not pictured lower piece on the internet manual. Was it phased out? The stove isn't new. This part goes over the cat.

http://knarrnia.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/wedge.jpg <- are these supposed to go to the bottom? These are the wedges which hold the big old plate in the back. I don't want to force it since the foam is already hurting.

Also thanks for being helpful, I'm new to anything this complicated which is on fire and not a car.
 
tiber said:
(Warning - pics are huge)
Please excuse me if I'm not going to lift everything out of the stove again. I am really, really sore.

I got out the big camera so I can have huge photos:
http://knarrnia.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/foam.jpg <- Mystery foam device. If it's supposed to be one piece with his buddy below him (not pictured) it's done. The one below him is rough around the edges but isn't DOA. I can't find the not pictured lower piece on the internet manual. Was it phased out? The stove isn't new. This part goes over the cat.

http://knarrnia.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/wedge.jpg <- are these supposed to go to the bottom? These are the wedges which hold the big old plate in the back. I don't want to force it since the foam is already hurting.

Also thanks for being helpful, I'm new to anything this complicated which is on fire and not a car.
The piece in the top picture looks like the refractory cover; it's placed against the CAT to close off the refractory chamber after the CAT is placed inside.

The wedges in the 2nd picture are NOT supposed to go all the way down; just down enough to keep the cast cover in place. I use a rubber mallet to gently tap them down in place which is all you should need to do.
 
Gridlock said:
The piece in the top picture looks like the refractory cover; it's placed against the CAT to close off the refractory chamber after the CAT is placed inside. The wedges in the 2nd picture are NOT supposed to go all the way down; just down enough to keep the cast cover in place. I use a rubber mallet to gently tap them down in place which is all you should need to do.

Thanks for the reply. It's helpful to know the wedges aren't supposed to go to the bottom.

If it's supposed to seal the cat in there, then it's really likely I need a new one. I took a hint from BeGreen's confusion and started calling around for "refractory cover", the only way to get one seems to be to buy the entire box. It's nice to have the confirmation though, there's three VC dealers in my area and two of them showed me firebrick and I was starting to worry.

I posted in another thread specifically about "glue" for it. It's gotten no bites as of yet. Gordo suggested finding refractory mortar, but his VC is even older than mine and before the foam. I doubt the mortar is a good idea for my application. I may try 3M stuff if no-one has any ideas. It's expensive as sin ($16 for 8oz at home depot) but it's cheaper than buying a whole new refractory box just for the cover ($250?)
 
The only confusion was due to the term "foam". It sounds like the stove needs a new refractory assembly, part #1602510. Is that correct? You might also want to check the combustion throat hood to assert that it is not warped.
 
The stove has no warping of any metal parts (this was one of the criteria of "serviceable conditions"). I jammed my level in every place it would fit to make sure we had straight lines.

Ugh, back to the wonderful manual here... the "refractory assembly" is what I've been offered as a "complete box" at the stove store. The part number pictured for the Defiant is #1602511. It's simply "Part #11" on the stove parts diagram. Not to kick the beehive about buying online and competitive prices versus buying locally, but it's $76 on the internet for the part. It's worth it (to me) to try rebuilding it with 3M's 3000F caulk.

I wholly admit to being the source of confusion since I'm working on an unfamiliar item. :\
 
Part #11 is listed as the refractory access panel in the model 1945 manual. That's much better than having to replace the entire assembly. Yes, VC parts are costly and some are fragile. Welcome to the current generation of VS stoves.

If you are attempting a repair, reinforce the repair by using thin metal struts. Maybe made out of heavy stiff wire like an unbent heavy-duty paper clip?
 
It's actually a Defiant 1910. Not current-bleeding edge, but close enough I won't feel a need to update for many years to come. I'm actually hoping with the new defiant coming out that if the repairs fail, the parts will become cheaper.

The paperclips are an excellent idea, thank you.

I pulled up the spec sheet on the 3M sealant and their "fire blocker" is only rated to 1350F. I'm glad I checked this since I was a fan of it previously for fireplace repairs. Rutlands makes a product which is half the price which is good up to 2000F. Since 2000F is in chimney fire territory I went with the Rutlands product. The only downside is that it requires several hours of curing at 500F, so this just became the last thing to get rebuilt and will have to wait for that chilly fall day.

Will post pics of the rebuild. I'm documenting this entire thing so that hearth.com gets something back out of carrying me the entire 9 yards.
 
Actually Franks deserves the credit for posting the paperclip rebar idea awhile ago. Have you read this thread? It's about the Encore but still may be helpful. Also check out the link to tradergordo's excellent posting on the subject of casting your own parts.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/49413/

As for curing the repaired access cover, bake it in the oven.
 
I hit up Gordo first actually asking if he had the VC Foam or what the material was. We're not friends, or even aquaintences in real life but I figure I owe him a beer if I run into him - he lives up the road from me. His property glows an eerie green at night...
 
That glow might be from Hogwildz's place. He's going nuclear as soon as both stoves get online.
 
Refractory package can ONLY be bought as a complete set. FYI your lower fire back is slightly warped, you may have put a straight edge on it, but I've rebuilt over 500 VC stoves and I recognize a warped fire back in that pic
 
Good eye! I thought that might have been lens curvature, but looking again, I can see what looks like a bowing of the fireback.

500 VC stoves, wow. Sounds like VC has provided you with good job security. :)
 
I don't work on them anymore, was a dealer and tech adviser for over 22 yrs, was like watching your best friend die of cancer and still smoke two packs a day
 
To quote the sig, good stuff aint cheap and cheap stuff aint good. My nikon coolpix does indeed have bizarre lens parallax. You can see it on the fire brick clip on the bottom, but it's not as severe because it's closer to the center but the shadow has parallax. I was going to post HAY GUISE WHATS WRONG WITH MY LEVEL but I don't feel like getting dirty. The picture was taken about 5 ft from the stove will full zoom.

Heat shields: I called the stove shop - apparently the 1910 doesn't have heat shields? Probably time to buy 24ga sheet steel?
 
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