VC Winterwarm Large Replacement

[jkk]

Purchased insert in 1999, moved it to current house in 2002. At that time, I had the dealer install a DuraVent SS double wall liner (that stove requires 8") in the masonry chimney and reinstall the VC Winterwarm. I am an avid burner and have had zero parts replaced on the unit (other than the catalyst, every 4-5 years). I have read much about the unit of how it eats parts but I have been fortunate by maintaining myself and clean chimney half way thru burn season and at end. Unit still running ok but seeing a lot of the cast iron parts "rotting" away. Time for a new insert.
Have read hours of posts on this site and have narrowed to BK Princess insert and the PE Summit. Looking for comments on both units for my application:

1. External fireplace, 16" cathedral ceiling with glass on both ends of the 30'x30' great room (kitchen attached to room and is another 20'x18' space) where insert is located. Existing clay flue is 16"x16" (OD) and was in great shape as the large open fireplace was not used much by prior owner. Fireplace opening is 47"W x 31"H x 27"Deep and should accommodate most inserts
2. House is 2800SF all on one floor, slab with no basement, fuel oil fired hot water baseboard heat, well insulated with open floor plan
3.Burn every day from November thru end of March
4. Installer did include a blockoff plate but I am unaware if it is heavily insulated on the chimney side of the plate. Have complete confidence in the installer as it was the dealer in which i purchased the stove and they are one of the largest stove/insert dealers in the central/northern Ohio area.
5. Cut, split my own wood.
6. Looking for 12 hour minimum of REAL heat.

Questions:
1. Are these two stoves similar in heat output? How do their output compare to Winterwarm as it never seems to be able to put out enough heat.
2. Like long burn time on BK, but do I sacrifice enough heat to heat the space?
3. Will PE Summit have long enough burns as I have heard that they are sometimes difficult to throttle down the air enough (too much fire)?
3.12 year old double wall SS Duravent liner is 8" but both proposed stoves call for 6". Would like to reuse the 8" but am concerned these stoves are engineered for 6" and would impact the performance. If 6" truly required, could I slide a 6" single wall flexible inside of the 8"?

This is my first purchase of the current EPA products, and I am assuming that they will provide more heat than the Winterwarm but I have nothing to base that on.

I look forward to the comments as I have been reading most threads on these two inserts for a couple of months and attempted to provide the necessary info.

Thanks

 

[Grisu]

Not sure how you define "real heat" but 12+ hours would probably be pushing it with the Summit. It will still be somewhat warm and have plenty of coals left for an easy restart but I would be cautious to assume it still will be able to heat 2800 sqft at that point. With the Princess you can extend burn times but as you already seem to know you will have less heat per hour in that case.

Have you taken a look at the Kuma Sequoia? It is larger than both units, has a cat, and you would not need to replace the liner. A Hearthstone Equinox put in front of of the fireplace would be another option.

 

[NinjaTech]

I have the princess and love it, that being said though I'm heating half the space you are.

Buck 91 came to mind for me, much bigger box, and still a cat. Also uses a 8 inch liner like the Kuma does. Those may be better sized for your home.

 

[jkk]

Grisu, I am looking for this to be secondary heat but looking for more heat than the VC. The Sequia is on the radar but minimal dealers in area, minimal reviews on this site and truthfully their website looks like it has not been updated since 2013? I may need to drive to the only dealer in Ohio and see if they can educate me.

 

[jkk]

Ninja, I have not looked at the Buck at all, but will investigate. The large great room/kitchen side of the house is open area and over half of the total house area. Overall goal is to replace the aging VC and hopefully replace it with something that produces more heat.

 

[mellow]

Do you want MORE heat, or LOWER heat for longer?

Honestly if I was heating that much I would look into a wood fired solution that would tie into the existing baseboard loop.

 

[jkk]

Looking for more heat is primary. Current burn time is 5 hours max. therefore if PE or BK would deliver more heat than VC for 10-12 hours I would be happy.

As the home has no basement, the boiler is in a small utility room and no space for central wood boiler or I would certainly pursue.

 

[NinjaTech]

I can tell you right now the BK should do better than the winter warm. I know someone that has, and still uses on a regular basis a large winter warm insert and my BK does provide heat much longer than theirs. Its not nearly as 'pretty' looking though. Much smaller window, not as much nice active flame. I have no idea of the condition of the cat in theirs so that may be part of why theirs seems to under perform so much.

I would still take a look at a Buck or Kuma, if you have a big enough fire place to fit it, and already have the 8 inch liner that just seems like the logical way to go. I was looking at the Buck 91 myself before getting the BK. My house just isn't large enough to warrant that large of a stove, but it sounds like you could put it go good use.

 

[Grisu]

Grisu, I am looking for this to be secondary heat but looking for more heat than the VC. The Sequia is on the radar but minimal dealers in area, minimal reviews on this site and truthfully their website looks like it has not been updated since 2013? I may need to drive to the only dealer in Ohio and see if they can educate me.

Kuma is a small, family-owned operation. Certainly not as well known as larger brands like PE, Jotul etc. In addition, not many people who need the heating power of a Sequoia or have the space to install it. Nevertheless, the few reports we got here seem very positive including their customer service. Have you tried a forum search? It's a busy time of the year but you may want to give them a call. I am sure they will be happy to answer your questions.

 

[jkk]

I have read all that I could on this forum and elsewhere on the internet. Kuma is certainly an interesting company, I like the openness of the owner and how most of the employees are family members. I need to know their product better as I was not able to find any info on insert maintenance, cat replacement procedure or typical wear parts on any of my searches. This is a big insert that I do not want to be puling out of the fireplace for service work. As Grisu said, they are a small company and not a lot of info out there on them. I will try to visit the Ohio dealer and learn more with some additional internet searching. Thanks!

 

[jkk]

Called Kuma Ohio dealer and they sold the Sequoia "floor" model and will not have another to view until after March1, 2015. I want to view the unit before leaping.

Went to view the Buck 91 at the dealer and was surprised that they were stronger on the 94NC than the 91, due to the simplicity of the non-cat 94NC. Inspecting the two, the 94NC is certainly easier to use but 75% vs. 86% efficiency (91)is hard to overlook. The dealer spoke highly of not having to deal with the cat but I am concerned with loosing longer burn times that the 91 should produce.

Any comments on the difference in burn times of the two units and any on the difficulty of inspecting/replacing of the 91 cat as it looks cumbersome?

 

[mellow]

The dealer just doesn't want to field complaints about the cat, most people do not operate them correctly and get upset with the dealer. You will need a better draft with the cat stove, insulated liners are pretty much required.

Running at cat stove is not hard, just requires common sense and the ability to read, looks like you already have those covered.

Here is a good thread on the 91: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...unning-advice-tricks-and-tips-welcome.100464/

 

[jkk]

Thanks for the thread Mellow, I finally got to read the whole thing last night. The summary was that cats do need tinkering which I am used to but if a 94NC could produce almost similar results that could make for a simpler burn.

I will start a new thread