VOCs in paint...........

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WoodMann

Minister of Fire
Feb 9, 2008
670
New Mexico
gf just had her house rennovated, we're gussing it was built around the early to mid 60's prolly '64. With the new windows the house is totally sealed which is grea for keeping warm. The flip side is that she can't quite move back in because she has a reaction to something that causes her to have a migraine. We're guessing that it's prolly the paint- big question is, can paint, once totally dried be OK regardless of Any VOCs that it may contain? We also wonder about mold and are fixing to get a Pro Lab kit from the hardware store. Anyone have experience dealing with mold and any remedies short of tearing the walls apart.............
Thanks
 
All building materials are going to offgas a certain amount so it could be anything that has been added / changed in the house
cabinets, carpeting, paint etc
mold is a tricky diagnosis and could be extensive or mild
mold is everywhere, always
 
Carpet backing, formaldehyde from glues in panel goods, new paint, and mold are likely suspects.
VOCs by their nature basically evaporate. That's why you smell them. Dry paint should put off very little VOCs.
If you have new carpet I'd suspect that the most.

More information on what was done in the remodel might be helpful to figuring things out.
 
No Carpeting was installed in the remodel; just new windows, which seal fantasticly, new paint but also the heaters were redone- they're propane fired furnaces, wall units in each room and I've tried to play with the idle/ pilot enrichment screw on the air horn in an attemp to lean out the pilot- yes CO tests have been performed and none found. As of note- however, is the rear most room furnace has a manifold that has been converted from natural gas to use for propane and there are no adjustments I can find on that. As to the mold, I understand that no all mold is necesarrily bad mold- it's the black mold ya wanna watchout for- or is it all mold altogether...............
 
WoodMann said:
No Carpeting was installed in the remodel; just new windows, which seal fantasticly, new paint but also the heaters were redone- they're propane fired furnaces, wall units in each room and I've tried to play with the idle/ pilot enrichment screw on the air horn in an attemp to lean out the pilot- yes CO tests have been performed and none found. As of note- however, is the rear most room furnace has a manifold that has been converted from natural gas to use for propane and there are no adjustments I can find on that. As to the mold, I understand that no all mold is necesarrily bad mold- it's the black mold ya wanna watchout for- or is it all mold altogether...............


I think we have a winner
I had one I added to heat the garage
could not stay out there very long
would get a bad headache, she is probably sensative to it
it never bothered my wife though

there are many black molds, only some are toxic
need to be aware of all molds, even low level fungii
to much of anything is bad
 
WoodMann said:
No Carpeting was installed in the remodel; just new windows, which seal fantasticly, new paint but also the heaters were redone- they're propane fired furnaces, wall units in each room and I've tried to play with the idle/ pilot enrichment screw on the air horn in an attemp to lean out the pilot- yes CO tests have been performed and none found. As of note- however, is the rear most room furnace has a manifold that has been converted from natural gas to use for propane and there are no adjustments I can find on that. As to the mold, I understand that no all mold is necesarrily bad mold- it's the black mold ya wanna watchout for- or is it all mold altogether...............

A jet change is required when going from natural gas to propane

If you're saying you're using ventless heaters you may have just created problems by tightening up the house with new windows. Ventless units should not be used in a tight house and never in bedrooms. In fact I think operator's manuals for those things recommend opening a window during operation.
 
I don't think that the heaters are ventless, thank you for observing that and I'll check into it. there are vents out to the roof so I'd think that they'd be OK. My Dad used to own a motel with heaters like this in every room and there were no complaints from customers about oders, but then again if I remember correctly- they were natural gas fired supplied by the city. I understand then that the vents may be clogged such as with a birds nest and I'll check that. But what about air purifiers? I almost feel at a loss here for ideas of what the issu could be. But. interestingly, the heater in the Den area gives off a somewhat seet smell. BTW an air quality test has been performed recently and things like Chloromethane, Toluene, Ethanol, Freon 11 Isopropyl Alchohol, 2- Butanone, Xylene4- Ethyltoluene and 1,2,4- Trimethylbenzene were all reportedly found below NOISH and OSHA limits, but I still wonder a bit. Any suggestions would be appreciated................
thanks
 
Even if the heaters are vented, if they are new they could be burning off some residue during 'burn in'. You could try cranking them all for a while with your windows wide open.

As for your problem...try cracking a couple of those new windows to get some fresh air (or leave a bathroom fan running) 24/7 until you get it cleared up. The hit on your util bill is a small price to pay for the gf's health and comfort.

I had some transient mold in one room after a flood, and simply leaving some windows cracked made the rest of the house inhabitable (I was the only one who was sensitive).
 
Did she have reactions before the remodel? If not then I would venture that mold is not the problem. It could be a problem of sensitivity. I am convinced that my wife has this problem. SHe has a very acute sense of smell, if she can smell anything that is not normal she will get a headache. Although a very real condition I am convinced that it is mental. She smells something and convinces herself that it will give her a headache and it does. I spray painted a small piece of iron in our basement that probably took all of 1-2 minutes to paint. As soon as she walked in the house she smelt it and continued to smell it and have a headache for 2 days. That was after I air it all out. Whenever we have painted a room we have to seal it and open the windows in that room for several days before she can re-enter it.
 
Thanks geek- I'm gonna try that; gunning the furnaces for awhile. I hear ya white; When I listed my house in Illinois in 2005 for sale cousin and his wife came over for a looksee and right away the wife smelled gas, me and her hubby couldn't tell a thing. Called the gas Co and they found and fixed and the house sold on the 3rd day. We plan to get one of those plug in Propane. CO detectors, might anyone have recommendations on a good unit? Thanks, I'll keep you all posted..............
 
How long is she in the house before she gets a headache?
Is there any odor in the house? Like paint or glue or a stuffy smell?
I too think mold is unlikely or she'd have had this problem before. Unless the workers tore-out a whole bunch of moldy window sills & she's reacting to the spores in the air...
Good on you for getting an air test. Keep in mind people can react to chemicals at levels below OSHA or NIOSH. I was on an emergency response to a Toluene spill a few years back & got a bad headache moments after they started digging it up. Air monitors all over the place had low readings, others beside me & closer to the action were unaffected, but I had to get outta there.
 
It seems like a matter of minutes that she's in the house and the headache set in. BTW, yes- there is a heavy musty smell when ya walk into the house. I've observed that one time when the pilot blew out in the front room and we came in there wasn't a smell at all and Honey found in liveable even. Current course of action is to get a plug in propane/ CO detector. We've also had the gas company out for inspection and they've verified that the system has no leaks, so I'm leaning to conclude that the heaters are not burning completely. Is there a method that can be employed to determine this? Again, thanks for you alls advice.................
 
If the burners are not burning completely it shouldn't matter, since it should all be going out the chimney/vent.

If they are vent free they're illegal to operate parts of New Mexico.
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hovntlss.htm

Can you get a model number from the heaters you're using for us?
 
Sorry, but we need a harder answer on whether the heaters are vented or not....can you post the brand/part numbers? If they aren't vented, they are a huge source of humidity, and thus the 'musty' problem. IF they are vented, then where is all the humidity coming from? Seems like a dry climate/season, so it can't be a wet basement. HIdden plumbing leak somewhere? It is hard to imagine that a 60s vintage house would get so airtight after a window changeout to drive the winter humidity high with just normal sources (e.g. cooking and showering).

Can you get a cheap humidity meter and put that in? Old houses in cold climates can have wall cavity condensation problems when the RH gets above ~30%. Above 50-60% you will be dumping huge amounts of water into the walls, even in a mild climate. Much above that, you can grow mold in your furnishings and get a big musty smell.
 
Thanks Guys, I'll check for numbers- where would I look? I was thinking the same thing about the vents- if they're operating properly then any noxious fumes should be vented out. We're still gonna gun the furnaces full blast one of these days, weather permitting. thanks again guys.............

PS- I googled around for allowability of ventless appliances in NM, good catch thanks- and it says that they're allowable for propane fired units in NM........ http://www.ventless-gas-fireplaces.com/ventless_products_code_information.html

But say they are ventless- can they be piped out the vent that's there? As I understand it that ventless units exhaust(much to the concern of the health people) into the living area.............
 
Hmm- how do I attach a pic here, it's the manifold with all the numbers. BTW I understand that there is a reducer available for the air horn, does anyoneknow something about that and where I might be able to get one?

101_0116.jpg
 
Latest notes; had a few cold snaps here lately so the heaters were firing away. At this time I noticed that musty smell was much less almost nill and gf found it liveable. It appears that when the units are idling with the pilot only that's when the musty and aggrivating smells start to build up and apparently not get vented out properly. I've been thinking about an air purifier, the Orek V specifically to help deal with these smells and irritants. I understand that there is some air horn reducer that will help the pilot burn differently..................
 
WoodMann said:
, the heater in the Den area gives off a somewhat seet smell. BTW an air quality test has been performed recently and things like Chloromethane, Toluene, Ethanol, Freon 11 Isopropyl Alchohol, 2- Butanone, Xylene4- Ethyltoluene and 1,2,4- Trimethylbenzene were all reportedly found below NOISH and OSHA limits, but I still wonder a bit. Any suggestions would be appreciated................
thanks

Most of those sound like VOCs associated with paint/thinner etc. except for Freon obviously. Check out http://www.aerias.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=3&tabid=65

As was stated before the NIOSH and OSHA levels are not really applicable for residential use. Those levels are set for an average 8 hour exposure 5 days a week. Most of us are in our homes more than that. Also, as was stated before, the NIOSH and OSHA levels do not account for hypersensitivity to specific chemicals. Finally, those levels are risk based levels, not necessarily annoyance levels. It is a very common thing here at work to have air sample results well below the PEL which still causes annoyance for our employees. If you haven't, I would also check CO2 levels in the house. If it is sealed up very tightly CO2 can build pretty quick.
 
THanks- how would I test for CO2? The fire dept? Are there CO2 sensors out there..........
 
Of course, it may not be the heaters.....it is not clear you are 'airtight' yet. During the cold snaps, your stack driven air exfiltration would be much higher and freshen the place out. Then it goes mild and the air just stagnates. IF you had a mold or allergen source in the house, your symptoms would follow the pattern you state. Can you shut off the gas/pilots during some mild weather and see if the air is still bad?
 
Hmmmm, yeah- gonna do that too, geek. I plan to first gun the units all out for a couple hours, then go for shut off. Reason I believe it's the heaters is because one day when entering the house the front room pilot was out, don't know for how long but the air was clear and liveable........
 
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