Welcome any suggestions on which gassifier to buy

[Frozen Canuck]

This is my first post here. First of all thanks to all for the wealth of info posted here. Wish I had known of this site much sooner. Oh well that's life.

OK after much reading (& more to follow) I have decided to post my question. That is which gassifier do you think satisfies my circumstances & conditions?

Circumstances: We consume 40k Btu/hr at -40*. Fuel source is mostly poplar (trembling aspen) standing or fallen dead wood & lots of it. I will never catch up to the deadwood.

Conditions: ( Imposed by me ) I am open to reasonable persuasion.


#1 I will continue to use deadwood as fuel.

#2 I want to use the deadwood in as large of a piece as I can, the bigger the better, no need to split as wood is dead & dry.

#3 (opt A) I want to fire once in a 24 hr period at -40* so I need to store 1 mil usable Btu at each firing, (opt B) I can fire twice, once before I leave for work, once when I return from work, welcome suggestions on storage here.

#4 I can place inside or outside of a building my choice, inside makes more sense in alot of common sense ways.

#5 I cant be a slave to long firing periods to get the 1 mil Btu into storage as I still need to work a few more decades before I retire.

 

[Floydian]

Hello and Welcome-

I think there are 2 huge factors here.

1. To start with, aspen seems to be a really low btu wood-around 12 million btu's/cord.What kind of condition is this downed/dead/dry aspen in? Is it punky at all?
I see it being tough to get the firing schedule you want with this wood but I don't know.

2.What temperature water do you need at -40*? This will really determine how much time you can coast on storage.

That said, I would seriously look at a Garn with its large integrated storage and massive btu output. It may get you closer to that schedule than anything else but again that aspen is a concern to me.

Good luck and happy researching,
Noah

 

[stee6043]

If 40k btu/hr is your peak load your average load is likely to be in the 20k btu/hr ballpark. This is a very reasonable load. My average load is very close to 20k with my peak load being a little closer to 50k. I survive quite nicely on one fire per day (start at 5:30pm, partial load at 7:00PM and full load at 9:30PMish). My EKO 40 produces enough heat to satisy this load with my 1,000 gallons of storage to spread it out when I'm not at home.

If you truly want to only load your burner 1 time per day I think you'll need a very large boiler (EKO 60-80 maybe, or equivalent).

As the poster states above I'm not sure how well your wood supply will support a gasser. You need at least some coals to burn well...

FWIW - with your heat loads you don't need a million useable btu's in your tanks. Remember that your boiler will heat your home while charging the tanks...

 

[Hydronics]

You may need to split it in order to get the moisture content low enough in a reasonable timframe. I have no experience with aspen but my experience with dead wood (even standing) is that the center has a high m.c.
I also think the Garn is possibly the best all around choice if you have the room and are willing to spend the money for one.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Hello and Welcome-

I think there are 2 huge factors here.

1. To start with, aspen seems to be a really low btu wood-around 12 million btu's/cord.What kind of condition is this downed/dead/dry aspen in? Is it punky at all?
I see it being tough to get the firing schedule you want with this wood but I don't know.

2.What temperature water do you need at -40*? This will really determine how much time you can coast on storage.

That said, I would seriously look at a Garn with its large integrated storage and massive btu output. It may get you closer to that schedule than anything else but again that aspen is a concern to me.

Good luck and happy researching,
Noah

Thanks for the welcome, very pleased to be here, wish I had been sooner.

A1 Not sure about the Btu value but it will never come close to what you burn down south for sure.
Condition is everything from OMG this is perfect to OMG just let the bugs finish this, yes lots of punk to dry out.

A2 Water temp range usable is from 130* to 190* upper & lower limits, I like to keep a buffer to safe guard on run up on the high end. Bad OWB experience, faulty stat in a new unit.

RE: Garn was leaning that way, have 4 boys, plus us, so I need simple, load, light, set timer, walk away sounds good. But still open to suggestions on other boilers/storage systems.

Was wondering what boilers might get me the Btus in my time frame.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

If 40k btu/hr is your peak load your average load is likely to be in the 20k btu/hr ballpark. This is a very reasonable load. My average load is very close to 20k with my peak load being a little closer to 50k. I survive quite nicely on one fire per day (start at 5:30pm, partial load at 7:00PM and full load at 9:30PMish). My EKO 40 produces enough heat to satisy this load with my 1,000 gallons of storage to spread it out when I'm not at home.

Thanks that type of situation works for me too. Loading while I work in/around the yard/farmyard etc.

If you truly want to only load your burner 1 time per day I think you'll need a very large boiler (EKO 60-80 maybe, or equivalent).

Agree no matter what brand I will lean towards big. -40* can stick around here for a while so big is good.

As the poster states above I'm not sure how well your wood supply will support a gasser. You need at least some coals to burn well...

Wood supply is no problem have lots can adjust cut, split, storage to suit boiler, can leave punk in bush to feed bugs. This part I can/am willing to work with, but species will be 95% aspen 5% birch, just the way it is.

FWIW - with your heat loads you don't need a million useable btu's in your tanks. Remember that your boiler will heat your home while charging the tanks...

Agree but if anything I want bigger heat cushion, just gives me/us more options down the road.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

You may need to split it in order to get the moisture content low enough in a reasonable timframe. I have no experience with aspen but my experience with dead wood (even standing) is that the center has a high m.c.
I also think the Garn is possibly the best all around choice if you have the room and are willing to spend the money for one.

Thanks for the info I will be buying a moisture meter & testing core of log as well as perimeter/ends to see how much of a variance there is.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

This is my first post here. First of all thanks to all for the wealth of info posted here. Wish I had known of this site much sooner. Oh well that's life.

OK after much reading (& more to follow) I have decided to post my question. That is which gassifier do you think satisfies my circumstances & conditions?

Circumstances: We consume 40k Btu/hr at -40*. Fuel source is mostly poplar (trembling aspen) standing or fallen dead wood & lots of it. I will never catch up to the deadwood.

Conditions: ( Imposed by me ) I am open to reasonable persuasion.


#1 I will continue to use deadwood as fuel.

#2 I want to use the deadwood in as large of a piece as I can, the bigger the better, no need to split as wood is dead & dry.

#3 (opt A) I want to fire once in a 24 hr period at -40* so I need to store 1 mil usable Btu at each firing, (opt B) I can fire twice, once before I leave for work, once when I return from work, welcome suggestions on storage here.

#4 I can place inside or outside of a building my choice, inside makes more sense in alot of common sense ways.

#5 I cant be a slave to long firing periods to get the 1 mil Btu into storage as I still need to work a few more decades before I retire.

Find an alternative heat source. What you want is everything.

1)Your wood is JUNK. I mean no offence, but there is no point to gathering dead Aspen. It's harly worth gathering BEFORE it rots.
2) Large pieces=largefirebox=OWB
3)How are you going to obtain 1 MBtu in one firing. Engineers here may give you theory, but, it's not possible.

Now. . . .you WERE joking, were you not?? :coolhmm:

 

[Frozen Canuck]

This is my first post here. First of all thanks to all for the wealth of info posted here. Wish I had known of this site much sooner. Oh well that's life.

OK after much reading (& more to follow) I have decided to post my question. That is which gassifier do you think satisfies my circumstances & conditions?

Circumstances: We consume 40k Btu/hr at -40*. Fuel source is mostly poplar (trembling aspen) standing or fallen dead wood & lots of it. I will never catch up to the deadwood.

Conditions: ( Imposed by me ) I am open to reasonable persuasion.


#1 I will continue to use deadwood as fuel.

#2 I want to use the deadwood in as large of a piece as I can, the bigger the better, no need to split as wood is dead & dry.

#3 (opt A) I want to fire once in a 24 hr period at -40* so I need to store 1 mil usable Btu at each firing, (opt B) I can fire twice, once before I leave for work, once when I return from work, welcome suggestions on storage here.

#4 I can place inside or outside of a building my choice, inside makes more sense in alot of common sense ways.

#5 I cant be a slave to long firing periods to get the 1 mil Btu into storage as I still need to work a few more decades before I retire.

Find an alternative heat source. What you want is everything.

1)Your wood is JUNK. I mean no offence, but there is no point to gathering dead Aspen. It's harly worth gathering BEFORE it rots.
2) Large pieces=largefirebox=OWB
3)How are you going to obtain 1 MBtu in one firing. Engineers here may give you theory, but, it's not possible.

Now. . . .you WERE joking, were you not?? :coolhmm:

Nope, no joke at all.

I am accomplishing this now with a dirty disgusting OWB.

2 loads per day, morning before I leave & again when I get home. Yes even at -40*

Was looking for suggestions on a gassifier that could do the same, only much cleaner.

Even if my neighbors are not tired of that disgusting smudge pot I am.

Hoping we can all breath a little easier with the help of some of forward thinking results/solutions based people on this site.

Thanks for viewpoint I just think/believe that there is a better solution than operating a smudge pot OWB to accomplish this goal.

 

[patch53]

Hey Canuck, read somewhere that it was almost -60F in Edmonton last weekend? Was that true?

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Hey Canuck, read somewhere that it was almost -60F in Edmonton last weekend? Was that true?

Yes, I believe that to be true.

I am a 2 hour drive north of Edmonton.

So slightly colder here.

Worst I have ever hed to work in was -60 °C . I believe that is -76 °F

Keep up the warm thoughts it helps...lol.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Just thought I would add some info on this topic. If I am out of bounds here Admin/Mods please let me know.

Re: Wood quality. I separate the punk/from the good deadwood, feed in the punk when it is warmer -20 °C/-4 °F & above. I never feed in green/wet wood. I pile it until it is dry/seasoned but in log form, I never split.

Re: Firebox size. I realize that my OWB firebox is larger than even the biggest Garn. Remember that my OWB is prob 40% efficient at best. So if Garn is 80% efficient then I need 1/2 the firebox size to get the same job done (with the same quality of wood in the load), with a lot less smoke/pollution. In a Garn I burn the entire load down to ash, then repeat, no smoldering smudge pot.

I think I am on the right path & place here. Trying to find a gassifier that will do the same job as my OWB. Sorry I just fail to see the logic if my 40% system can get it done with 2 loads/day. I should be able to find a Gasser that can accomplish the same with 2 or max 3 firings per day. Everyone feel free to chime in correct/inform/educate me at will. Go ahead FIRE at will... LOL.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

. . . if my 40% system can get it done with 2 loads/day. I should be able to find a Gasser that can accomplish the same with 2 or max 3 firings per day. . .

Yes. All things being equal. If you were using junk to heat with an OWB and it was successfully heating your space with two loads a day, then simply changing the wood-fired hydronic to one that is at least twice the efficency should produce the same heat with less wood volume.

Pretty straightforward assumption.

The problem lies in the numbers you gave us :zip:

 

[Birdman]

I have a Tarm Solo 40. Love it. However... in your situation?... my opinion is get a Garn. Big investment.. but over time.. it will be worth it.

 

[tigermaple]

Wet aspen will never burn @ 80% eff. You are probably only getting 25% out of your OWB. Standing dead trees wick up moisture, but some like ash and hickory will burn OK. Elm and quaking Aspen, not so good. A Garn will put you 20k in the hole and will not help that much unless you get a year ahead in cutting. Cut a lot, because burning dry aspen is like burning tissue paper.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

. . . if my 40% system can get it done with 2 loads/day. I should be able to find a Gasser that can accomplish the same with 2 or max 3 firings per day. . .

Yes. All things being equal. If you were using junk to heat with an OWB and it was successfully heating your space with two loads a day, then simply changing the wood-fired hydronic to one that is at least twice the efficency should produce the same heat with less wood volume.

Pretty straightforward assumption.

The problem lies in the numbers you gave us :zip:

Which numbers are you refering to? Maybe I can clear it up/provide more info, thanks.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

I have a Tarm Solo 40. Love it. However... in your situation?... my opinion is get a Garn. Big investment.. but over time.. it will be worth it.

Yes I am leaning towards a Garn as well, seems to be a good fit for me/us. Hoping I can find someone closer to my location that has a Garn & drive over for a look see.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

. . . Cut a lot, because burning dry aspen is like burning tissue paper.

TFF

Very unscientific comparison here . . . when it is +40 and sunny out, I can load the GW with Aspen and walk away . . .

for 2 hours :wow:

Same size load of Oak (is Oak EVER truely 'seasoned'?) and temps 20 deg will last 8 hours.

The three wetest woods I ever tried to burn were basswood, Hard maple and Aspen. All three were dead. All three were wet. Despite the fact that Maple is WAY better than the other two, Once they are dead and wet, NONE of them will produce heat.

Ever try to produce heat from wet tissue paper?

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Wet aspen will never burn @ 80% eff. You are probably only getting 25% out of your OWB. Standing dead trees wick up moisture, but some like ash and hickory will burn OK. Elm and quaking Aspen, not so good. A Garn will put you 20k in the hole and will not help that much unless you get a year ahead in cutting. Cut a lot, because burning dry aspen is like burning tissue paper.

Re: wet aspen, I dont burn it I pile it until dry then burn it. Some peices take 2-3 years to dry out or longer. Log form un split 48" long. I have approx 10 cords in this form now busy drying. I typically burn 20-23 cords of dry deadfall each season.

Re: wicking up moisture. Here not so much unless in contact with ground. Very low MC in the air here compared to most ppl that are great lakes eastern seabord states. Think Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico etc, just not as hot.

 

[Como]

1m btu a day.

12m btu's a cord max

25% efficiency

2 burns a day suggests a 1/6 of a cord a burn, 20 cu ft

Does this sound correct?? It seems a lot of loading!!

I do not know your altitude but that may be a factor.

To get 1 burn a day with a Garn, well you you need 2 Garns, the 2000 costs less than half a 3200.

I doubt you could actually get that much anyway, most/all specs will not assume Aspen, never mind dead Aspen.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/btucalculator.html

A very simple, but quick, on line calculator, what does this say for your situation?

I burn a mix of aspen and pine, aspen is quick and hot, but it does not last long. The weight gives it way compared to others.

 

[Como]

Re: wet aspen, I dont burn it I pile it until dry then burn it. Some peices take 2-3 years to dry out or longer. Log form un split 48" long. I have approx 10 cords in this form now busy drying. I typically burn 20-23 cords of dry deadfall each season.

Re: wicking up moisture. Here not so much unless in contact with ground. Very low MC in the air here compared to most ppl that are great lakes eastern seabord states. Think Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico etc, just not as hot.

I am in Colorado so pretty much the same conditions, very different to most on this site I think.

I may be wrong, but it may be much more helpful to think of wood better in terms of weight. Just got to shift a lot more of it.

However Boilers are not designed for our conditions.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

. . .

Circumstances: We consume 40k Btu/hr at -40*. Fuel source is mostly poplar (trembling aspen) standing or fallen dead wood & lots of it. I will never catch up to the deadwood.


#3 (opt A) I want to fire once in a 24 hr period at -40* so I need to store 1 mil usable Btu at each firing, (opt B) I can fire twice, once before I leave for work, once when I return from work, welcome suggestions on storage here.

#5 I cant be a slave to long firing periods to get the 1 mil Btu into storage as I still need to work a few more decades before I retire.

According to http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_wood_heat_value_BTU.html you can expect to obtain 10MBtu from a cord of Aspen. Thus 40kBtu X 24 hours = 1MBtu = 4 X 4 X 8 /10 = 13 Cubic feet of Aspen

The Garn is approximately 11 Cubic Feet (25" X 41")

I would want to know from an end user that you can absolutely fill a Garn and that it will burn down appropriately. Even if it does, how are you going to get 13 CF of wood into a boz that only holds 11CF? Factor into this . . .

1) 40KBtu/hr at -40 sounds optimistic
2)Dead/wet Aspen is not going to give you 10MBtu

Help me out where my math is wrong

 

[Frozen Canuck]

1m btu a day.

12m btu's a cord max

25% efficiency

2 burns a day suggests a 1/6 of a cord a burn, 20 cu ft

Does this sound correct?? It seems a lot of loading!!

I do not know your altitude but that may be a factor.

To get 1 burn a day with a Garn, well you you need 2 Garns, the 2000 costs less than half a 3200.

I doubt you could actually get that much anyway, most/all specs will not assume Aspen, never mind dead Aspen.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/btucalculator.html

Sorry for the typo got the response in the middle of your reply, but here it is:

Yes agree with most of what you say. Volume is close. Yes lots of loading. I was hoping that a Garn 2000 with 2-3 firings per day would do the job, maybe I am just dreaming here.

Re: Dead dry wood vs green cut dry wood. You may be surprised by the amount if energy still left in dead wood. As long as cellular break down (rot) has not occurred the energy levels are very close. If cells of wood are intact then energy stored in them is also intact, the only thing that has been removed is the water. I know this from my years of work in the pulp industry where they study this on a molecular level. They have to be accurate because their volume of wood is so high. Mistake = millions of $ bye bye. They typically (in this area) leave the wood after cutting 3-5 years in the bush, in piles then bring it to the mill & make pulp; ie. cell structure still intact & energy is stored in the cells of the wood. Once again sorry for the typo. Thanks

A very simple, but quick, on line calculator, what does this say for your situation?

I burn a mix of aspen and pine, aspen is quick and hot, but it does not last long. The weight gives it way compared to others.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

. . .

Circumstances: We consume 40k Btu/hr at -40*. Fuel source is mostly poplar (trembling aspen) standing or fallen dead wood & lots of it. I will never catch up to the deadwood.


#3 (opt A) I want to fire once in a 24 hr period at -40* so I need to store 1 mil usable Btu at each firing, (opt B) I can fire twice, once before I leave for work, once when I return from work, welcome suggestions on storage here.

#5 I cant be a slave to long firing periods to get the 1 mil Btu into storage as I still need to work a few more decades before I retire.

According to http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_wood_heat_value_BTU.html you can expect to obtain 10MBtu from a cord of Aspen. Thus 40kBtu X 24 hours = 1MBtu = 4 X 4 X 8 /10 = 13 Cubic feet of Aspen

The Garn is approximately 11 Cubic Feet (25" X 41")

I would want to know from an end user that you can absolutely fill a Garn and that it will burn down appropriately. Even if it does, how are you going to get 13 CF of wood into a boz that only holds 11CF? Factor into this . . .

1) 40KBtu/hr at -40 sounds optimistic
2)Dead/wet Aspen is not going to give you 10MBtu

Help me out where my math is wrong

Your math is good, I have checked the same sites. My math is good for the house. Well built, well insulated, triple pane windows, storm doors over insulated entry doors, etc. Every time I do a reno I add all the insulation I can, only a fool would do otherwise in this climate, living in -40 gets you in the groove of build it right, build it tight. Read my response to Durango re deadwood in the Pulp industry I believe the stored btus (in sound dead wood is much higher than most of us believe), right now I am thinking Garn 2000 with 2-3 firings per day. This is viable for me, just not preferred, oh well too bad so sad for me. I think I can make this work with my current (Deadwood) fuel supply. Thanks.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

If ya got that much 'good' dead wood. . . . sell it to the mill and buy oil/gas.