What Code?

[webbie]

Upland was tested by Arnold Greene Labs, which I think was in Auburn. MA. They were a fully approved lab. Other labs cannot use the UL logo, they can simply use the test standard # - such as "tested to UL 1482 by Arnold Greene Labs".

Back in the "days", labs had to pass even more certifications - ICBO, SBCC, etc.....now they have banded together under IBC (IRC).

In the case of liner, let me apply a bit of common sense to this - there is no liner that is approved without insulation to meet the same standard as those with insulation. Stainless steel has certain properties, and those do not change too much - not enough for it to become an insulator!

BUT, a company might have tested their liner without insulation in a 12x12 chimney with spacers and then it may have passed the sames standards.....but, then again, so would the other ones have (if they tested)....

So, what to do? If the chimney being lined is in reasonable shape (working condition) and is being lined for "size" reduction only, I would not have too much concern. However, if one of your locals is lining a "loose brick" or other severely deficient chimney with thin flex and no insulation....and claims this is OK, ask for the manual.....and if that is "muddy" ask for the test report or a fax from the manufacturer. I doubt the manufacturer wants to be caught "red handed", so you will probably get an accurate answer.

 

[elkimmeg]

Craig If I can arrange a tour of UL are you interested? The last time us inspectors were there, it was amazing to see the testing facility.

In the past, us inspectors have had the privileged of also visiting Bird now Celotex Plant tours, where we saw Roofing shingles vinyl siding being made.

I was really impressed with the wind test lab for shingles. Amazing what 50mph wind can do to shingles. Common 3 tab shingles usually have 4 nails,
but there is a real difference when they are wind nailed 2 extra nails on each side of the center tabs

 

[webbie]

Thanks for the offer, but not into traveling to IL. at this time. I am hopefully doing some traveling this week and soon to see a EPA test lab (at a manufacturer), a stove museum and also trying to set up a tour of Heat-Fab (impressive facility)....if you want to do Heat-Fab....well, I'll PM you when and if I get that set up. It is near here.

An impressive place with their own lab also....but the machines are really cool!

 

[elkimmeg]

The Ul lab I going to if I can arrange it is in Norwood MA not IL

 

[elkimmeg]

I cut and pasted this from The 2006 IBC Late now Patriots won with out cheating easilly time for bed but for you late nighters try to interpet this then tell me what tested to is in relationship to full compliance

SECTION M1303*

*LABELING OF APPLIANCES*

*M1303.1 Label information. *A permanent factory-applied

nameplate(s) shall be affixed to appliances on which shall

appear, in legible lettering, the manufacturer’s name or trademark,

the model number, a serial number and the seal or mark

of the testing agency.Alabel shall also include the following:

*LABELED. *Devices, equipment or materials to which have

been affixed a label, seal, symbol or other identifying mark of a

testing laboratory, inspection agency or other organization

concerned with product evaluation that maintains periodic

inspection of the production of the above labeled items that

attests to compliance with a specific standard.

*LISTED AND LISTING. *Terms referring to equipment that

is shown in a list published by an approved testing agency qualified

and equipped for experimental testing and maintaining an

adequate periodic inspection of current productions and whose

listing states that the equipment complies with nationally recognized

standards when installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s

installation instructions

 

[jjbaer]

From what I can gather this is what most manufacturers are requiring for re-lining

------------

ZC air cooled chimney - Must be insulated to obtain 2100 deg rating

Prefab Class A - (Guessing) Reline if needed to size correctly, no insulation required

Masonary with no clay liner - Must be insulated

Masonary with clay liner, good condition, meets NFPA 211 guidelines - No insulation needed

Masonary with clay liner, good condition, unknown if its code compliant - Must be insulated for 0" clearance or have 1" air space around liner (using spacers)

Masonary with clay liner, damaged or poor condition - Must be insulated

--------------

Does this sound about right?

The problem is that for virtually 100% of home owners, that unless they were there when their chimneys were built, they really don't know the clearances and tile integrity is almost impossible to determine unless you use a video camera....so.......peace of mind (and 2100 F certification) comes pretty cheap at $250 for a full 1/2" thick insulation kit that will cover 25 ft of 6" stainless steel vent tubing.....

 

[Gooserider]

I cut and pasted this from The 2006 IBC Late now Patriots won with out cheating easilly time for bed but for you late nighters try to interpet this then tell me what tested to is in relationship to full compliance

SECTION M1303*

*LABELING OF APPLIANCES*

*M1303.1 Label information. *A permanent factory-applied nameplate(s) shall be affixed to appliances on which shall appear, in legible lettering, the manufacturer’s name or trademark, the model number, a serial number and the seal or mark of the testing agency.Alabel shall also include the following:

*LABELED. *Devices, equipment or materials to which have been affixed a label, seal, symbol or other identifying mark of a testing laboratory, inspection agency or other organization concerned with product evaluation that maintains periodic inspection of the production of the above labeled items that attests to compliance with a specific standard.

*LISTED AND LISTING. *Terms referring to equipment that is shown in a list published by an approved testing agency qualified and equipped for experimental testing and maintaining an adequate periodic inspection of current productions and whose listing states that the equipment complies with nationally recognized standards when installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions

My take on it is that the stuff I bolded are the critical parts - if something has PASSED a standard, you need a label that contains the following, in addtition to the Mfgr info

1. The identity of the certifying TEST LAB / agency / etc

AND

2. Either an attestation that the product complies with the SPECIFIED standard.

OR

3. The phrase "LISTING" or "LISTED" to a specified standard.

It looks to me like the latter two elements are essentially identical in terms of having met the requirements of the standard named, the only difference being that the items meeting #3 are put on a list that is published by the testing entity and presumably available somewhere outside the manufacturers own info channels.

Requirement #2 seems to specify a specific language to be used, but doesn't seem to specify that the standard be identified, only that it "complies with nationally recognized standards" - presumably if one looked up the Agency listing it would identify the actual standards if the label didn't - or would it be safe to assume that the "nationally recognized standards" would be the ones most relevant automatically?

The question is what language would meet the "attests to compliance with a specific standard" requirement in #3? I would probably buy anything that says "Meets", "Passes" "Complies with", "compliant" or any other words of that sort which indicate passage. I'm still not sure I'd buy just "Tested To" except that I would expect a reputable lab would object to having it's name used in that sort of way.

I would tend to say that if one has found a label that has a known test lab's name on it (as opposed to "Joe's testing service"?) attached to the product then "due diligence" has been satisfied and one could not legitimately reject an installation based on the product used - obviously one could still reject for the WAY in which it is installed.

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

On the subject of "tested to" and do they say that it met the spec here is the listing wording from Warnock Hersey's listing for the Intrepid II, Defiant Encore and Resolute Acclaim.

"A representative sample of the listed devices have been tested, investigated and found to comply with the requirements of the Standard(s) for Solid Fuel Type Room Heaters (UL-1482) and are identified with the Warnock Hersey Listed Mark"

 

[Gooserider]

On the subject of "tested to" and do they say that it met the spec here is the listing wording from Warnock Hersey's listing for the Intrepid II, Defiant Encore and Resolute Acclaim.

"A representative sample of the listed devices have been tested, investigated and found to comply with the requirements of the Standard(s) for Solid Fuel Type Room Heaters (UL-1482) and are identified with the Warnock Hersey

Listed

Mark"

Well that does have language saying the equivalent of "passed", and also that it is "Listed" and it even names the standard, so definitely not a problem label. What I would be more curious about is what it says on the label for one of Elk's favorite "Tested to" Vogelzangs...

Out of curiosity, I just checked the manual for the Vogelzang Model BX26E box stove, which looks like the one sold by HF and friends, and it says in several places that the stove is "NOT a UL listed stove." (emphasis theirs) and gave the 36" NFPA clearance requirements (w/o mentioning them as susch) in the install diagrams.

OTOH their manual for the TR-001, which they claim is EPA certified @ 4.21 g/hr, states "This stove meets Test Standards: UL 1482-1996 U.S. & ULC-S627 Canada" and has something that looks like it might be a test lab logo - a parallelogram bar that says "O-TL" with a bunch of vertical bars on it? TR-001 The clearances in that manual were pretty typical - 12" rear and 15" sides.

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

VZ products are listed by Omni Environmental.

http://www.omni-test.com/listing_directories/pld_search_results_final.php?product=527

 

[Gooserider]

VZ products are listed by Omni Environmental.

http://www.omni-test.com/listing_directories/pld_search_results_final.php?product=527

Thanks BB, it isn't the same logo that I saw in the VZ manuals, but it's consistent. Tells us who is doing at least some of VZ's testing.

Gooserider