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Windmills in our mountains. What's so bad?

Post in 'The Green Room' started by save$, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. Ehouse

    Ehouse Minister of Fire

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    I'm not going to be pushed into a polarized position on this. There's nothing partisan about it . I'm in favor of wind, solar, and hydro energy production. I'm against their cynical, exploitative, and inappropriate implementation. Look at a NY map of wind potential that includes offshore. WTF! Why are we siting them here? The NY area is adjacent to the greatest wind potential in the state, (same goes for the greater Buffalo region). It's the same **** and run formula that works every time. The wind mills will begin to topple and flop and no one will be around to clean up the mess.

    Ehouse

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  2. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Fiber optics would allow for this..

    Ray
  3. eclecticcottage

    eclecticcottage Minister of Fire

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    Oh, but think of all the JOBS it will create (rolleyes). I agree. Let those with the demand create the supply in their own backyards for a change.

    What's ironic to me is, there used to be windmills along the shore of Lake Erie just below Buffalo years ago. They flopped and after sitting around as rusty hulks for years were torn down. Guess what's back on the shore there?

    I know it sounds very much like it's soley because of where we live, but I seriously don't want turbines IN the lakes (off shore). It's like everyone forgot how polluted they were, and are. Remember being told not to eat the fish you caught in Lake Erie or Ontario? Niagara Falls' plants dumped how many tons of chemicals and toxic garbage into the river (CWM in Lewiston still does)? And that's what they admit to. A big lot of the manhattan project work was done here (google artvoice the bomb that fell on niagara falls). Like none of that wound up in Ontario. And that's just on this side-I'm sure Canada contributed as well. Now let's go stir up all that sediment and build in it?! Seriously?!
    Realstone likes this.
  4. semipro

    semipro Minister of Fire

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    It seems to me that the majority of the money we've spent on "defense" over the last 30-50 years has actually been used to ensure our supply of cheap overseas oil.
    I consider that a subsidy.
    Monosperma likes this.
  5. Monosperma

    Monosperma Member

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    Big Oil and Big Coal have already had decades of direct and indirect government support, particularly when starting up and growing. (So did hydro, by the way.) Wind and even moreso solar are still in the youth of technological development. To my thinking, you are comparing a kindergarten kid with an NFL linebacker, whom we have supported for decades since he was small, saying the kindergartener cannot compete on his own with the linebacker thus the kindergartener does not merit receiving support.
    raybonz likes this.
  6. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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    They are self sustaining and always have been. Both were private enterprises at their inception.
    Can you say the same for wind and solar? How long would they last without subsidies?
  7. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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    I agree. Rarely are any issues black or white on any topic, and I too dislike defending a polar position. I am not anti-environment, but taking one position in order to state a point of view paints me as such. For that reason, I'm out.
  8. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Both are very simple by nature with wind having mechanical aspects that solar doesn't.. Either way both are substantially simpler than ANY conventionally powered prime mover by contrast. I will also add that neither of the above adds ANY pollution whatsoever plus require NO added fuel to create power I would like you to rebut that statement!

    Ray
  9. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Your opinions inspire thought and invoked my thought process and are welcome here..

    Ray
  10. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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    I meant economically viable without subsidy.
  11. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    RS I do value your opinion.. It is important that we all see both sides of the story and I for one have adjusted my thoughts based on your ideas and those of others. Please stick around I think we can all learn from this..

    Respectfully,
    Ray
    Wildo likes this.
  12. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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    Thank you. Did you read/consider what I proposed
  13. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Steve I have considered all you have said as well as what others have said and am weighing it all as I hope you're doing as well.

    Ray
  14. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    BTW that link is not working here..

    Ray
  15. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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  16. basod

    basod Minister of Fire

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    Apparently you've pulled a gearbox from 250-300' up tower. Fairly regular occurance on machines with low hours. Lots of moving auxiliaries in those nacelles - yaw motor/gears etc.

    Compared with gas turbines I work on that'll run 28-32k hours depending on hardware life cycles. The GT engine may seem more complex(it's auxilliary systems might be the machine is just a big pinwheel) but then I'd have to have ~85 wind turbines or 800+ acres of PV panels to make the power of just one of 4 machines that sit on a combined area of less than 20acres.
  17. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Basod there are growing pains with anything new so I expect this with these new technologies too. I did not say they were perfect and in time they will improve like anything else.

    Ray
  18. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Good stuff Steve and I have felt for at least 10 yrs. that hydrogen should the gasoline of tomorrow as the only emissions are water and CO2 if I remember correctly! Did you have a chance to read the Mother Earth News story I posted here too? Like I said we need to see the big picture to understand the story.

    Ray
  19. raybonz

    raybonz Minister of Fire

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    Don't forget the systems you mention require fossil fuels as the prime mover...
  20. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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    I'll check that later Ray. With a power storage system it is possible to take the power the wind or solar generates directly on-line if the reserved power (either hydrogen or head of water) is immediately available as a backup for when the wind stops blowing or it gets dark.

    But I am not for it if it is not economically viable without subsidy. Research, prepare now, yes indeed. But don't spend the kids money doing it in the process.
    raybonz likes this.
  21. basod

    basod Minister of Fire

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    As noted by Realstone the shale gas deposit plays developed in the last 10yrs have enough gas for north america's energy needs plus exportation for the next 100+years.
    Gas prices aren't going anywhere in our lifetime - unless we decide to put it at a competitive disadvantage.

    Wind turbines and solar panels aren't going to keep your fridge cold, ac huming or power the ever growing number of electronic devices in our lives without taking over 1/3-1/2 of the real estate in america.
    I'm all for having a diverse (including green) energy portfolio in america - fossil fuels aren't going away though
    raybonz and ScotO like this.
  22. Realstone

    Realstone Lord of Fire

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    Besides, what's so bad about CO2 anyway? It is one of the prime building blocks of life. Where the climate is warmer and wetter, life abounds. Combine this with higher CO2, and you have an even greater abundance of life. Reduce CO2 and make the climate cooler and drier? Prepare for austerity.
    raybonz likes this.
  23. eclecticcottage

    eclecticcottage Minister of Fire

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    NO pollution? Sorry, but no. The manufacturing of them does in fact, create pollution at some level. The mining of the raw materials, the refining, the actual process of creating the end result, the shipping to the location. There is NO zero pollution answer, when all variables are considered.
    raybonz likes this.
  24. woodgeek

    woodgeek Minister of Fire

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    Great discussion....but the models suggest that rapid global warming (i.e. faster than centuries) leads to strongly drier climates. Basically, the land warms up faster than the ocean, and that inhibits condensation over land.

    That turns wetter only after ocean temps catch up centuries later. IOW, the climate record which shows warmer=wetter is not relevant for the AGW case.
    raybonz likes this.
  25. eclecticcottage

    eclecticcottage Minister of Fire

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    This has always boggled me a little. Where is the water supposed to come from, to do this? What will happen when hundreds of thousands of vehicles use this technology, releasing water into environments like the desert? Will we be moving water from one location to another, by processing it as a fuel in area a and using it in area b? What happens in areas that are subject to extreme cold-will the vapor freeze before it's exhausted from the engine? Or even in the engine?

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