Wood Burning May be Banned in Northern Utah Valleys

[Anduril]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56950202-90/wood-quality-utah-particulate.html.csp

Wondering if any of my fellow Utahans have noticed that our passion may soon be illegal. Northern Utah mountain valleys have long been plagued by temperature inversions that result in poor quality air during winter months. Currently, the problem is managed by "no burn" days when the air is especially bad. Now, a collection of environmental groups is trying to completely ban wood burning. I'm none too happy about my $4000 stove turning into a boat anchor.

 

[Oldhippie]

Why don't they go after the big polluters, the busses, trucks, cars and start having "no drive days"?

 

[dafattkidd]

Oh boy. That would suck.

 

[begreen]

Why don't they go after the big polluters, the busses, trucks, cars and start having "no drive days"?

Prolly because this is not the issue if traffic is light. Open burning and older stoves burning poorly seasoned wood is likely the main culprit. That is where the community should focus its attention.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Welcome to the forum Anduril.

That is sad to hear but we have the same thing in some other areas. It is too bad they could not sort out if the stoves were old or more modern stoves which burn much cleaner. If you have an abundance of Outdoor Wood Boilers, those can really be a big problem.

On the other hand, this is not a total ban so it could be worse. We still feel your pain.

 

[Hoozie]

They're working on a similar thing here:
http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/planning/kfalls.htm
http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/factsheets/12-AQ-047.pdf
http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/planning/docs/kfalls/KFallsAttPlan2012.pdf

Legally, here, you can't have wood as your only source of heat. They will grant an exemption to give you time to add another source (but, we're going on 3 years now getting the sole-source exemption). They do have a program most every year where based on your income you would qualify for a whole new stove/heat source.

Talking to people who have been here a while, the air quality years ago was pretty bad. But more recently, it's really been pretty good. Just not good enough for the ever-tightening regulations.

 

[Oldhippie]

Prolly because this is not the issue if traffic is light. Open burning and older stoves burning poorly seasoned wood is likely the main culprit. That is where the community should focus its attention.

It's interesting, the article implies that older cars and emissions test eliminate polluters on the roads. I'm surprised by that, in most states there are different levels of testing for the various years of cars and older cars don't have the same rigorous standards as newer cars. Plus, trucks and busses (mainly diesel) are exempt entirely, I wonder if that is true in Utah.

Additionally there isn't a differentiation of clean burning EPA compliant stoves and fireplaces and smoke dragons.

Maybe someone from Utah has a better feel for this? I find it hard to believe that wood smoke in lightly populated rural areas is really causing such significant problems that it requires banning wood burning, but I'm not familiar with this concept of temperature inversions they talk about. From some quick web searches it looks like it's really centered around Salt Lake city and the populated valley.

http://www.airquality.utah.gov/clean_air/archive/inversion.htm

But, maybe there are so many smoke dragons that it is just an obvious target. Myself, I get caught behind the diesel busses and 12 wheel dump trucks here in Mass and my car needs washing afterwards.

 

[Hoozie]

Here, if we don't reach attainment by Dec 2014, all non-certified stoves will be prohibited from operating during the winter inside the AQZ. They will still allow certified stoves that emit less then 5.1g/kg. Non-certified stoves would need exemptions to be used only on holidays/special occasions.

So at least at this point, they're not going for an all out ban; just trying to get the worst stoves upgraded/removed.

As of 2011, apparently there are still ~2200 non-certified stoves in the air quality zone here

 

[begreen]

It's still this way up in Darrington, WA in spite of a very generous replacement buyout for old smoke dragons up there. Every time I go up through that area there are chimney spewing out tons of low hanging smoke. The air is foul. Nobody seems to want to change old bad habits or maybe they just don't care.

 

[Anduril]

Welcome to the forum Anduril.

That is sad to hear but we have the same thing in some other areas. It is too bad they could not sort out if the stoves were old or more modern stoves which burn much cleaner. If you have an abundance of Outdoor Wood Boilers, those can really be a big problem.

On the other hand, this is not a total ban so it could be worse. We still feel your pain.

Thanks for the warm welcome, Backwoods Savage. Good point - my guess is if this proposal gains any traction it may end out with some kind of compromise, with newer stoves being allowed. I put in my Lopi 3 years ago and would be livid if I could no longer use it, especially with no compensation for the $$ spent. Like most folks here, I've invested a lot in tools, saws, time, etc. to support my wood burning and it would be a shame to lose it. Another factor they have yet to sort out is what are people expected to do during one of our notorious power outages, which can last up to a week in very, very cold weather.

On another note, just took down another load of wood from the local national forest today. I have a 4 cord permit and dropped three medium-sized ponderosa's this afternoon. If I lose the ability to burn, I'm going to have a lot of wood for sale . . .

 

[jharkin]

It's still this way up in Darrington, WA in spite of a very generous replacement buyout for old smoke dragons up there. Every time I go up through that area there are chimney spewing out tons of low hanging smoke. The air is foul. Nobody seems to want to change old bad habits or maybe they just don't care.

This I suspect is the problem... Stove replacement programs are not enough because there are many folks who won't care, can't be bothered to change, or will outright protest that the 'gubment has no right to interfere in their god given right to pollute at will'

And half of the few who do upgrade will just keep burning green wood anyway...

 

[Hoozie]

Another factor they have yet to sort out is what are people expected to do during one of our notorious power outages, which can last up to a week in very, very cold weather. On another note, just took down another load of wood from the local national forest today. I have a 4 cord permit and dropped three medium-sized ponderosa's this afternoon. If I lose the ability to burn, I'm going to have a lot of wood for sale

Here, if the power goes out anyone can burn for the duration of the outage, then it goes back to normal. With any luck any new regs at your place would have the same clause.

We also can't cut Ponderosa from the NF, even if it's dead and on the ground All other dead standing, or dead & down we can take with permit.

 

[Anduril]

It's interesting, the article implies that older cars and emissions test eliminate polluters on the roads. I'm surprised by that, in most states there are different levels of testing for the various years of cars and older cars don't have the same rigorous standards as newer cars. Plus, trucks and busses (mainly diesel) are exempt entirely, I wonder if that is true in Utah.

Additionally there isn't a differentiation of clean burning EPA compliant stoves and fireplaces and smoke dragons.

Maybe someone from Utah has a better feel for this? I find it hard to believe that wood smoke in lightly populated rural areas is really causing such significant problems that it requires banning wood burning, but I'm not familiar with this concept of temperature inversions they talk about. From some quick web searches it looks like it's really centered around Salt Lake city and the populated valley.

http://www.airquality.utah.gov/clean_air/archive/inversion.htm

But, maybe there are so many smoke dragons that it is just an obvious target. Myself, I get caught behind the diesel busses and 12 wheel dump trucks here in Mass and my car needs washing afterwards.

As far as I know all cars here in Utah have to meet the same emissions standards, unless 1) they are in a rural county where testing is not required, or 2) they are older than 1967 model year. Newer vehicles can skip testing every other year.

As for the inversions, you're right, they are only a problem in the urbanized valleys of Salt Lake City, Ogden, Provo, and Brigham City. I don't think this proposed rule would apply to the rural areas. You and Backwoods Savage make good point - they should at least initially try to differentiate between open burning, non-EPA stoves, and ordinary fireplaces before going after modern EPA stoves like mine. The other irritating point is, if I read the articles correctly, the study could not distinguish between wood smoke particulates and those from grilling of food, but of course there are no proposals on the table to go after restaurant grills. Thanks for all the replies folks.

 

[Oldhippie]

As far as I know all cars here in Utah have to meet the same emissions standards, unless 1) they are in a rural county where testing is not required, or 2) they are older than 1967 model year. Newer vehicles can skip testing every other year.

As for the inversions, you're right, they are only a problem in the urbanized valleys of Salt Lake City, Ogden, Provo, and Brigham City. I don't think this proposed rule would apply to the rural areas. You and Backwoods Savage make good point - they should at least initially try to differentiate between open burning, non-EPA stoves, and ordinary fireplaces before going after modern EPA stoves like mine. The other irritating point is, if I read the articles correctly, the study could not distinguish between wood smoke particulates and those from grilling of food, but of course there are no proposals on the table to go after restaurant grills. Thanks for all the replies folks.

Do you have diesel busses and dump trucks out there.. they seem to be everywhere out here.. and they spew black smoke.. and make me choke when I get behind them.. which you always do, because invariably they are on the road in front of everyone. But, yet, they seem to avoid the emission laws.

 

[jharkin]

As far as I know all cars here in Utah have to meet the same emissions standards, unless 1) they are in a rural county where testing is not required, or 2) they are older than 1967 model year. Newer vehicles can skip testing every other year.

Can't be. No car made in the 70s 80s or even 90s would pass the current standards for new production cars. I'm sure Utah is like every other state where cars have to meet the rules in effect the year it was built.

Pre 67 cars are exempt most everywhere because they predate the Clean Air Act and have no emmisions controls.

 

[Anduril]

Do you have diesel busses and dump trucks out there.. they seem to be everywhere out here.. and they spew black smoke.. and make me choke when I get behind them.. which you always do, because invariably they are on the road in front of everyone. But, yet, they seem to avoid the emission laws.

We do have a lot of them. It seems most of the public buses have been converted to NG, but trucks not so much. We also have some pretty big industrial polluters: oil refineries, smelters, chemical processing plants, etc., which I know have been under some scrutiny as well.

 

[Fake coal burner]

Thats what happens when you get 1 million people stuffed in a bowl. Mountains all around. Next you will be sleeping vertically instead of horizontal. Back in the 1950s every thing put out smoke you name it.We can have 60 days or longer red no burn in the winter, That is when you like the wood heat. Smogy and fogy. Its getting like California every label you read causes cancer. I am glad I switched to gas stove, Like the Ron co rotisserie set it for get it. every thing you burn causes some sort of pollution or uses air we breath don't think these electric trains mass transit are helping either just shovel more coal in to the power plants. so where does it end.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

sometimes education is a hard thing. folks have grown up and grown old in traditional ways, hard to shake the old "wives tales' like "green wood burns longer" it may last longer in a stove but its not because its denser or hotter burning , its because it can take a couple hours to cook the moisture out enough to get it to actually burn, thus making a fire last all night.
new stoves with modern reburn capability allow a stove with a full load to burn all night without having to throw wet wood on top to cook then burn.

now, im an industry rep (full disclosure i work for a woodstove manufacturer) and my business is to sell stoves. what i try to do in doing so though is to attempt to educate folks in the art (and it is an art) of responsible efficient woodburning, and i'll tell ya, its not easy especially with older folks who grew up with the "old ways".

the trick is to get folks to understand that first off, the stoves of today are capable of burning clean while still burning hot but they need a proper flue to do it, many old setups aren't sufficient to "pull" an airtight epa unit, cross sectional values in the flue are critical, they weren't in the old days and peeps still think "a big ole chimney" is going to draft better, this is untrue. a good flue system is easily the most important element in proper wood burning regardless of the stove that's connected to it, good wood is a close second if not a tie for first.

FWIW if anyone who reads this and is curious about how flue systems and modern stoves work, PM me, i'd be happy to converse, i will not try to sell you one of my stoves, i don't do that in here, but i'll explain the science behind it in terms that a layman can understand, which i think would convert a lot of "traditional wood burners" into excited believers in what my company and the rest of the stove industry is working to do. build the tools to make a cleaner, more efficient environmentally friendly wood burning community

 

[akbear]

well, in my opinion, some of the best intentioned ideas can often have the opposite effect. Having lived in the Fairbanks area for many years, an area very prone to inversions and EPA scrutiny, it seems as though the ever increasing use of catalytic converters and clean burning technologies have simply resulted in more moisture in the air and smaller particles which are easier to breathe in (and not be expelled). Over the years ice fog in Fairbanks has gotten more and more frequent and at much higher temperatures, and it seems like the smaller pollutants, even if they cling to that, stay aloft where in the past larger particles had more ability to drop out of the air (the other nasty side effect being intersections glazed over with ice beyond the normal effect of wheels coming to to a stop and starting up again, with water dripping out of idling exhausts and vapour settling onto the roads adding to the glaze.)

 

[jharkin]

I seriously doubt vehicle catalytic converters have a meaningful effect on winter humidity and precipitation. I think you are just noticing changing weather patterns there....

 

[akbear]

I seriously doubt vehicle catalytic converters have a meaningful effect on winter humidity and precipitation. I think you are just noticing changing weather patterns there....

yet one of the main functions of a catalytic converter is to turn unburnt hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and water