Wood Stove BTU Rating

[Marshy]

NSPS - New Source Performance Standard
Says it all here if anyone wants the link.
https://www.epa.gov/residential-woo...mary-requirements-wood-fired-hydronic-heaters

It doesn't call out HHV test specifically, just an approved one. I can't imagine there are several to choose from which one would offer better results over another.

I retract that. That was just the fact sheet summary. If you want to see the entire compliance document it can be downloaded here.
https://www.epa.gov/residential-wood-heaters/small-entity-compliance-guide-residential-wood-heaters

Here is a screen cap that is applicable.

 

[Marshy]

Yes, look at method 28R. We are required to capture and report HHV.

Thanks.

 

[BKVP]

In fact, I may be dreaming after the red eye, but I recall the full rule specifies that we are not to report other than HHV. Or "promote" may also be iin there.

 

[BKVP]

My copy of full rule on my desk...

 

[BKVP]

B415.1-10 was originally the indoor forced air wood furnace method. Thermal efficiency are HHV. Glad to see someone is interested! You can see these reported numbers on EPA's website....no more defaults!

 

[Marshy]

B415.1-10 was originally the indoor forced air wood furnace method. Thermal efficiency are HHV. Glad to see someone is interested! You can see these reported numbers on EPA's website....no more defaults!

If I was in the PNW I would apply for employment but as it stands I'm on the east coast and have great employment in the electricity generation industry as a mech engineer.

 

[BKVP]

If I was in the PNW I would apply for employment but as it stands I'm on the east coast and have great employment in the electricity generation industry as a mech engineer.

So you're a sparky! (Kiwi term from my trip to NZ)

 

[BKVP]

Marshy The Sparky!

 

[Marshy]

So you're a sparky! (Kiwi term from my trip to NZ)

No mechanical, just traped in the generation industry lol.

 

[begreen]

http://www.blazeking.com/TestReports

Refresh you browser or remove history. I logged on found it instantly.

Link above...

That is quite bizarre. I didn't refresh the browser or anything. Just kept the tab open. When I returned to the Blaze King tab the test reports now are listed. Prior to this I had visited the site with two browsers, one I don't think I have ever used on the BK site.

 

[BKVP]

That is quite bizarre. I didn't refresh the browser or anything. Just kept the tab open. When I returned to the Blaze King tab the test reports now are listed. Prior to this I had visited the site with two browsers, one I don't think I have ever used on the BK site.

Federal Law. Non CBI versions of test reports must be posted to mfg websites.

 

[95XL883]

Okay, I'm totally confused. Right now I'm just a casual wood burner, strictly ambiance. I'm planning on building a hunting/farm cabin that will be wood heated so I lurk and try to learn. To my reasoning, I just need heat and don't want my game disturbed or driven off by smoke so my first priority is low emissions. My cabin will be well insulated and between 300 and 620 sq ft with a cathedral ceiling so call it 450 to 900. To my simplistic reasoning this leads me to something like a Boxer 24 or a Survival Hybrid, maybe a TN10 if I go the small cabin. So why all this interest in btu's? I know that is simplistic as btu's are a measure of the heat provided but does one really need to know specific btu output's? It seems like practically all I have to know is a range or size and I shouldn't have to worry about testing standards, methods, fuel types, etc. (Sorry, I don't mean to be disrespectful but I'm still trying to wrap my head around on footing sizes, joist sizes, ridge beams vs ridge boards, moisture control, cooling requirements, sanitation control, yada, yada. Maybe btu's are just one more thing I need to wrap my head around.

 

[Highbeam]

It is no fun to have a stove that is too small for the job and you're cold. Or too big for the job and you are overheated. A guy can make it work most of the time by sacrificing efficiency, comfort, emissions, wasted fuel, even safety. Or he can use the specs to get a stove that "fits" the application.

 

[bholler]

It is no fun to have a stove that is too small for the job and you're cold. Or too big for the job and you are overheated. A guy can make it work most of the time by sacrificing efficiency, comfort, emissions, wasted fuel, even safety. Or he can use the specs to get a stove that "fits" the application.

We see lots of problems with the wrong size stove. Probably the second most common performance problem after bad wood.

 

[95XL883]

Highbeam, thanks for the reply and educating a simpleton. So am I correct that you are saying that I would be better served by estimating a needed btu output and comparing that to ratings, which may or may not be accurate, rather than relying on a stated size served by the stove manufacturer? If I'm going the route of btu's then I suppose I need to also be aware of the types of wood that I have available and recognize that the btu capacity of that wood will vary greatly (on a size volume basis) depending on wood species. (In my instance, the available wood I have ranges from elm, hackberry, walnut, locust and hedge. From what I have read, elm is on the low end and hedge is on the high end, assuming all are properly dried.) This could get complicated but maybe it is necessary to understand the technical discussion above so I can apply it to the real world. Thanks for the education.

 

[bholler]

Highbeam, thanks for the reply and educating a simpleton. So am I correct that you are saying that I would be better served by estimating a needed btu output and comparing that to ratings, which may or may not be accurate, rather than relying on a stated size served by the stove manufacturer? If I'm going the route of btu's then I suppose I need to also be aware of the types of wood that I have available and recognize that the btu capacity of that wood will vary greatly (on a size volume basis) depending on wood species. (In my instance, the available wood I have ranges from elm, hackberry, walnut, locust and hedge. From what I have read, elm is on the low end and hedge is on the high end, assuming all are properly dried.) This could get complicated but maybe it is necessary to understand the technical discussion above so I can apply it to the real world. Thanks for the education.

You also have to think about how the cabin will be used. If it has no heat other than the stove when you go there in the winter youbare going to need allot of btus in a hurry to fet it up to temp. It tskes allot to heat all of the stuff in there up.so you may need a larger stove than you think.

 

[95XL883]

You also have to think about how the cabin will be used. If it has no heat other than the stove when you go there in the winter youbare going to need allot of btus in a hurry to fet it up to temp. It tskes allot to heat all of the stuff in there up.so you may need a larger stove than you think.

BHoller, you make a good point. Looks like I will need to spend some time studying btu requirement tables and see what I can find about warming up from cold surfaces. That will just be a starting point and only an estimate, from there than it looks like I should study the claimed btu outputs of the stoves I'm considering and if possible determine what species of wood was used. I suppose I would really be asking a lot to learn the MC of the wood used in determining those ratings. That would then give me a basis for at least making an educated guess for which stoves can actually heat whatever it is I build. A gut guess is the little TN10 might be able to heat my small option 14' x 18', heavily insulated and relatively air tight skid shed but if I go the larger 20 x 32 with a full foundation, I would probably be better served by going with at least the Hybrid Survival and really the Boxer 24 might be really what is needed to get that mass warmed up from a cold start. I've got a lot of reading to do tonight but for now I better get back to work.

 

[Poindexter]

I look forward to having time to read this for comprehension. IIRC BKVP said "not regulated" in the other thread, I have never known Chris to use the term "bogus" online or in person.

 

[Poindexter]

It took some digging, but I found the other thread...

Ok guys this Btu thing needs to stop and here is why. Btu's are NOT regulated. There is no requirement for manufacturers to list or prove actual btu production capability.

Be green is correct. Bholler is correct and webby is correct. Stand in front of ANY stove, toss is small dimensional fuel every four minutes and you can reach peak btu capability....but wait, you'll need an optimal chimney to get that peak performance. And really good fuel and low m.c. and air spacing as you load.

No need to argue btu's as they are often not credible.

No one has ever accused us of saying our products do not produce the heat output we advertise. Im standin outside in Fairbanks, where it was 4 thus morning. 9 of every 10 folks have one of our heaters....why?

As the customers here say..."it does the job". Certainly the best way to evaluate performance and doesn't get any more real world....

Bold mine. Chris / BKVP is a really really good guy. It absolutely galls me, just chaps my @55, to see him misquoted even a tiny little bit. He is not my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but he is a good dude. That he and I would connect through this forum and he would be so helpful to me was not part of my buying decision.

In Fairbanks, homeowners either have a wood stove, or not. Among wood stove owners, you either have a Blaze King, or not. This was the multiyear cultural expectation in my mind when the wife agreed to a wood stove to lower our oil bill and we went to the BK dealer to pick out a stove. She said A 30 or we can look at stoves not make by BK. I got out my VISA card and bought an A30 on the spot. Never looked back.

@95XL883 , you can reach paralysis by anaylsis, but yes, the more clear you can be about your needs, the more helpful 'we' can be about what size stove you might need. This is an area where it would be appropriate for you to also think about how you are going to use this cabin. Are you going in darkest winter to run a trap line? Deer season? How often? How long will you stay? How many people with you, how large a group?

Now, having said all that, I have a question for all y'all scholars.

What is the difference between HHV and LHV and why?

 

[Highbeam]

It took some digging, but I found the other thread...




Bold mine. Chris / BKVP is a really really good guy. It absolutely galls me, just chaps my @55, to see him misquoted even a tiny little bit. He is not my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but he is a good dude. That he and I would connect through this forum and he would be so helpful to me was not part of my buying decision.

In Fairbanks, homeowners either have a wood stove, or not. Among wood stove owners, you either have a Blaze King, or not. This was the multiyear cultural expectation in my mind when the wife agreed to a wood stove to lower our oil bill and we went to the BK dealer to pick out a stove. She said A 30 or we can look at stoves not make by BK. I got out my VISA card and bought an A30 on the spot. Never looked back.

@95XL883 , you can reach paralysis by anaylsis, but yes, the more clear you can be about your needs, the more helpful 'we' can be about what size stove you might need. This is an area where it would be appropriate for you to also think about how you are going to use this cabin. Are you going in darkest winter to run a trap line? Deer season? How often? How long will you stay? How many people with you, how large a group?

Now, having said all that, I have a question for all y'all scholars.

What is the difference between HHV and LHV and why?

I’d hate to see any part of you or Chris chapped. I can’t find where he said bogus or anyone quoted him as saying bogus. I said bogus about the btu specs for good reason. Do you have some kind of problem with the word bogus?

 

[bholler]

Wow lol

 

[BKVP]

It took some digging, but I found the other thread...




Bold mine. Chris / BKVP is a really really good guy. It absolutely galls me, just chaps my @55, to see him misquoted even a tiny little bit. He is not my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but he is a good dude. That he and I would connect through this forum and he would be so helpful to me was not part of my buying decision.

In Fairbanks, homeowners either have a wood stove, or not. Among wood stove owners, you either have a Blaze King, or not. This was the multiyear cultural expectation in my mind when the wife agreed to a wood stove to lower our oil bill and we went to the BK dealer to pick out a stove. She said A 30 or we can look at stoves not make by BK. I got out my VISA card and bought an A30 on the spot. Never looked back.

@95XL883 , you can reach paralysis by anaylsis, but yes, the more clear you can be about your needs, the more helpful 'we' can be about what size stove you might need. This is an area where it would be appropriate for you to also think about how you are going to use this cabin. Are you going in darkest winter to run a trap line? Deer season? How often? How long will you stay? How many people with you, how large a group?

Now, having said all that, I have a question for all y'all scholars.

What is the difference between HHV and LHV and why?

LHV, low heat value, is the efficiency of the appliance after water is dealt with, dry basis.

HHV, is the efficiency of the appliance, based on fuel load...including energy needed to deal with moisture.

 

[Poindexter]

In post one this thread user @Happy Stacker referred to anonymous user "he" who apparently says BKVP said "there is no standard for determining BTU output so the numbers are basically bogus."

User "He" will now be beaten, deservedly, about the head and shoulders with my Oxford English Dictionary. Thankfully for He I own the compact edition that comes with a magnifying glass, not the full size version that compares favorably in weight to a leather bound set of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

At the very least "He" should learn correct use of the comma, it used to be taught to seven year olds in the second grade.

In the meantime, having been failed by either precision (likely) or the majestic power of the English language (unlikely), let us turn to the ultimate arbiter of the English language.

"not" is the ordinary adverb of negation dating in print to at least 1362.

"regulated" governed by rule, properly controlled or directed, adjusted to some standard, etc. Dates to 1641 in surviving printed material.

"bogus" an apparatus for counterfeit coining, dating to July 6, 1827, American, Painesville, Ohio "Telegraph" newspaper, likely an abbreviation of "bogus press" as used in the Philadelphia "Spirit of the Times" 12 October 1844.

The implication of the incorrect quote is that Chris has something negative to say about his competitors. In fact, "not regulated" carries no implication of negativity to his competitors and is merely a fact.

If you do not understand the difference I question your privileges of both voting and reproduction.

 

[Highbeam]

In post one this thread user @Happy Stacker referred to anonymous user "he" who apparently says BKVP said "there is no standard for determining BTU output so the numbers are basically bogus."

User "He" will now be beaten, deservedly, about the head and shoulders with my Oxford English Dictionary. Thankfully for He I own the compact edition that comes with a magnifying glass, not the full size version that compares favorably in weight to a leather bound set of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

At the very least "He" should learn correct use of the comma, it used to be taught to seven year olds in the second grade.

In the meantime, having been failed by either precision (likely) or the majestic power of the English language (unlikely), let us turn to the ultimate arbiter of the English language.

"not" is the ordinary adverb of negation dating in print to at least 1362.

"regulated" governed by rule, properly controlled or directed, adjusted to some standard, etc. Dates to 1641 in surviving printed material.

"bogus" an apparatus for counterfeit coining, dating to July 6, 1827, American, Painesville, Ohio "Telegraph" newspaper, likely an abbreviation of "bogus press" as used in the Philadelphia "Spirit of the Times" 12 October 1844.

The implication of the incorrect quote is that Chris has something negative to say about his competitors. In fact, "not regulated" carries no implication of negativity to his competitors and is merely a fact.

If you do not understand the difference I question your privileges of both voting and reproduction.

I guess you’re referring to me but I never said Chris said bogus. User happystacker made that connection. The quote you refer to was not accurate. I think you missed something but “apparently” as you wrote in your first sentence means you didn’t check before writing all of that?

Maybe you should look for an actual, not apparent, quote before attacking someone poindexter.

Next research the phrase “going off half cocked”.

 

[Poindexter]

I don't know whom user "he" might be. I do not know if happystacker quoted "he" accurately in the quote that opened this thread.

I do know that Chris goes out of his way to build relationships with wood stove users in general, and other stove mfrs in general. He doesnt look out for just BK owners, he looks out for all wood burners.

Full disclosure, i paid $4300 to buy my A30 and have it delivered to the second floor of my home within 5 miles of my BK dealer. Chris bought me one beer, ever; and i ordered the most expensive thing on the menu knowing it would be the only one.

If you go back to post one in this thread you will see one sentence "new thread created", and then in a quote box a quote attributed to BKVP that I know in my heart is either inaccurate or missing a comma.

We are all on the same team here folks, and we are very, very lucky to have Chris on our team. Trying to plead "it's just the internet" is a very very poor attempt at excuse for a fundamental misuse of the only communication tool we share here.

With the missing comma back in there "bogus" becomes the opinion of He and not a (probably inaccurate) BKVP quote.

There are several other users on this website I will stand up for in a similar manner if I see them materially misquoted, even by implication. The short list is @begreen , @Highbeam , @Ashful , @solarguy2003 , and @ED 3000 . And then there is @kf6hap and @Diabel and a host of guys right behind who make regular material contributions to this website.

These are the same users I would expect, or hope, would stand up for me if i were away for a bit and mis quoted. The irony is this is a situation where Chris's position in the industry more or less prevents him from standing up for himself.

If you stumble on this thread in 2025, go rent "Ferris Beuller's Day Off". BKVP is our Ferris, he is a righteous dude, everybody loves him, the geeks, the motorheads, the jocks, the cheerleaders, the sluts, the nobodies, the band, the freaks..